Forum Home Forum Home > Other music related lounges > General Music Discussions
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - The Fascinating Contradictions Of The Beastie Boys
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

The Fascinating Contradictions Of The Beastie Boys

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 34567>
Author
Message
lucas View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 06 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 8040
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2012 at 06:32
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

But hip-hop is somehow impossible to blend into prog.
 
This band is in PA :
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
Back to Top
lucas View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 06 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 8040
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2012 at 06:36
^
and what about some krautrap :
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
Back to Top
akamaisondufromage View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: May 16 2009
Location: Blighty
Status: Offline
Points: 6797
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote akamaisondufromage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2012 at 06:41
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

I do believe prog and pop are opposites.
 
Pop: Appealing to an already extant idea of coolness/happiness in order to create something which will be immediately attractive to a consumer. It needs to be realtively simple in order to be successfully consumed through casual methods such as car radios and TV clips. Does not have to be totally iterative, but if it becomes too different from what is currently the norm, it is unlikely to be considered pop and be played in pop venues.
 
Prog: Creating something with no regard whatsoever for what the marketplace is interested in. Typically either aims for complexity and grandeur or alienation through the deliberate avoidance of norms. Both of these disqualify it from casual venues.
 
There you go, philosophical opposites.
 
Snow Dog: I'm not a snob, I'm right. You guys who judge the entirety of hip-hop based on 8 seconds of a Fifty Cent song you hear from a passing humvee don't have a leg to stand on. You're like young kids who say they hate classical music when they've never heard any ;)
 
It is impossible to draw a line that says on one side Prog on the other Pop.  Where exactly do Yes, Genesis, Floyd etc become Pop?  A band like Crass is therefore a Prog band in your book? 
 
All pop music like Hiphop can be incorporated in Prog .  If you did how much Hiphop would make it a pop record.  How long would the record have to be before it was officially Prog? 
 
Prog came from Pop. They are not mutually exclusive.
Help me I'm falling!
Back to Top
lucas View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 06 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 8040
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2012 at 06:44
^
the only fact that the Beatles are in PA shows that prog is derivative of pop.
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
Back to Top
catfood03 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 24 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 785
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote catfood03 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2012 at 10:55
I believe the blending of rap and prog had been pioneered by this obscure band from the early-90's... (forward to 3:12 minute mark)


Back to Top
lucas View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 06 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 8040
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2012 at 11:11
^
at that time Rush were not playing prog anymore...so no, they didn't pioneer this. Maybe Mr Bungle did this before they released their first official album.
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
Back to Top
catfood03 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 24 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 785
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote catfood03 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2012 at 11:24
^
okay, I was joking around anyway. It is a blending of ProgPopRap then.Smile
Back to Top
Sagichim View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Eclectic Prog Team

Joined: November 29 2006
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 6095
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sagichim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2012 at 11:30
That's not rap even by white people standards!
Back to Top
catfood03 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 24 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 785
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote catfood03 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2012 at 11:32
Originally posted by sagichim sagichim wrote:

That's not rap even by white people standards!


What are you talking about? That Rush rap is every bit as good as Vanilla Ice!
Back to Top
Sagichim View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Eclectic Prog Team

Joined: November 29 2006
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 6095
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sagichim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2012 at 11:42
Which is the best hardcore rapper ever LOL
Back to Top
CPicard View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 03 2008
Location: Lŗ, sui monti.
Status: Offline
Points: 10671
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CPicard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2012 at 13:09
So, we're not discussing about the Beastie Boys anymore, that's it?
Back to Top
catfood03 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 24 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 785
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote catfood03 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2012 at 14:53
hunh?

Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37331
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2012 at 16:45
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

I do believe prog and pop are opposites.
 
Pop: Appealing to an already extant idea of coolness/happiness in order to create something which will be immediately attractive to a consumer. It needs to be realtively simple in order to be successfully consumed through casual methods such as car radios and TV clips. Does not have to be totally iterative, but if it becomes too different from what is currently the norm, it is unlikely to be considered pop and be played in pop venues.
 
Prog: Creating something with no regard whatsoever for what the marketplace is interested in. Typically either aims for complexity and grandeur or alienation through the deliberate avoidance of norms. Both of these disqualify it from casual venues.
 
There you go, philosophical opposites.
Wrong. Or bullsnot. (either works for me). That view is snobbery of the worse kind - attributing lofty ideas and ideals to Prog that it isn't entitled to wear. You cannot actually determine the philosophy behind the creation of a piece of music just by listening to it, and even the words that come out of the artists mouth aren't entirely trustworthy in this respect either (that's were "pretentious" comes into play).
 
Whatever dark hole of introspective pretentiousness prog has painted itself, this is not where it began and, in spite of everything, it hasn't actually managed to climb atop the pedestal that has been created for it. Musically Prog is Pop regardless of the embelishments added to it.
 
Prog was created to make money (via fame if necessary, or vice versa) - no prog musician ever wanted to be a starving artist. Prog music (and musicians) just happened to arrive at a time when the music business was receptive to it and allowed it free reign - in the 70s Prog was the cash-cow, selling large numbers of albums instead of large numbers of singles was an unexpected windfall for the record industry and they were more than happy to indulge the golden goose (...don't worry, I've plenty of metaphors where they came from). The marketting and promotion of Prog was no different to the glitter-ball marketting of three minute pop, the stage spectacle and year-long world tour was to draw the crowds and sell the album, selling coolness/happiness to those who would buy it, even demin-clad lank-haired students living in bedsits pouring over the lyric sheet of Close To The Edge while rolling spliff on the album cover wanted to be cool and happy. And this still happens today, Roger Waters grossed $227,365,144 from the recent Wall Live tour.. Two hundred and twenty seven million three hundred and sixty five thousand one hundred and forty four dollars. Lady Gagag fell short of that total by more than $102million...
 
Prog is Pop.
 
 
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

  
Snow Dog: I'm not a snob, I'm right. You guys who judge the entirety of hip-hop based on 8 seconds of a Fifty Cent song you hear from a passing humvee don't have a leg to stand on. You're like young kids who say they hate classical music when they've never heard any ;)
I'll let Ian fight his own battles on whether you or he are a snob or not.
 
However liking a "minority" genre and implying that anyone who doesn't like it is closed-minded is the definition of musical snobery around here.
"You know what uranium is, right?
Itís this thing called nuclear weapons.
And other things.
Like lots of things are done with uranium.
Including some bad things.
But nobody talks about that."
Back to Top
Textbook View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Textbook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2012 at 23:35
I think Dean and I have got into a if I say it's night he'll say it's day thing so we may as well call it a day. I stand by my definition of prog/pop and find your "prog is pop" stance to be utter nonsense, but explaining why will take time and us nowhere and I hardly think you'll be bitterly disappointed at my decision to let it drop ;)
 
Anyway, my problem is not that people don't like rap. My problem is people judging it from a surface impression and that is what I have always said. For example, I don't like country music much. I don't consider myself close-minded though because I really did go back and listen seriously to a whole lot of classic/acclaimed country albums. Few of the people on PA who trash hip-hop seem to have done that with the hip-hop genre. If you have, fine, say so and I'll have no option but to shut up, but if you haven't it goes back to not taking people who judge music they haven't heard seriously.
Back to Top
Sagichim View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Eclectic Prog Team

Joined: November 29 2006
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 6095
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sagichim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2012 at 01:13
This thread is becoming very exhausting.
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37331
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2012 at 02:25
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

I think Dean and I have got into a if I say it's night he'll say it's day thing so we may as well call it a day. I stand by my definition of prog/pop and find your "prog is pop" stance to be utter nonsense, but explaining why will take time and us nowhere and I hardly think you'll be bitterly disappointed at my decision to let it drop ;)
What!
 
 
I say, WHAT?!?!
 
 
One post, one response and we have got into a "a if I say it's night he'll say it's day thing"? Bullsnot. Then you reply to my repsonse with a " I stand by my definition of prog/pop and find your "prog is pop" stance to be utter nonsense" but fail to give an explanation so as to cut me off... Censored you and Censored the ground you walk on. Bet your Censored arse I'm disappointed.... in you. I don't want to discuss this because you are wrong! ... ???? How Censoreding rude is that?!
 
 
Censored off.
 
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

  
Anyway, my problem is not that people don't like rap. My problem is people judging it from a surface impression and that is what I have always said. For example, I don't like country music much. I don't consider myself close-minded though because I really did go back and listen seriously to a whole lot of classic/acclaimed country albums. Few of the people on PA who trash hip-hop seem to have done that with the hip-hop genre. If you have, fine, say so and I'll have no option but to shut up, but if you haven't it goes back to not taking people who judge music they haven't heard seriously.
What!
 
 
I say... WHAT?!?!?!
 
 
That's one of the most supercilious comments I've ever seen on this forum, I'm speechless. Censored.
 
 
Censored!
 
 
 
Censored that's rude.
 
 
Man, what do you want? - a list of Censoreding albums and a detailed assessment of each one? A thirty thousand word dissertation on each hip-hop artist we've ever listened too?
 
 
How Censoreding dare you accuse us of something you have no proof of while claiming never doing it yourself. For Censored's sake credit us with the same level of intelligence you assume for yourself or Censored off.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
/discussion. Stern Smile
"You know what uranium is, right?
Itís this thing called nuclear weapons.
And other things.
Like lots of things are done with uranium.
Including some bad things.
But nobody talks about that."
Back to Top
Textbook View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Textbook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2012 at 04:12
Yes, well, quite.
Anyhoo...
 
How about that "It's the joint" sample on Shake Your Rump?
 
Rather well placed isnt it?
 
And then there's that really cool squelchy bass sound that sort of makes up the chorus of the song, I could listen to that all day.
 
I've never been able to quite figure out what exactly it is though.
 
*crickets*
 
I'll get me coat.
Back to Top
Snow Dog View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Errors & Omissions Team

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32990
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2012 at 04:46
I'll say something Texty.....it's not often a member gets Dean so bloody annoyed. 
Back to Top
Textbook View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Textbook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2012 at 04:49
I feel strangely proud.
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37331
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2012 at 08:56
don't be.
"You know what uranium is, right?
Itís this thing called nuclear weapons.
And other things.
Like lots of things are done with uranium.
Including some bad things.
But nobody talks about that."
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 34567>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.105 seconds.