Forum Home Forum Home > Topics not related to music > General discussions
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Do you think that life is fair?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedDo you think that life is fair?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>
Author
Message
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2012 at 19:16
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

whay? is it 'cos I said poo?
Well, yes. Also, because it seems you're hyper right now Tongue
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2012 at 19:49
^ life is exactly like that at times.
What?
Back to Top
RoyFairbank View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 07 2008
Location: Somewhere
Status: Offline
Points: 1072
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2012 at 13:23
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

An intelligent medieval person would just recognize his life was different. Disparity does not equal unfairness. 


If disparity doesn't equal unfairness, then unfairness does not exist, and people's perception of it cannot be explained.


The reason something is unfair is that it is out of sync with what one could do or wouldn't have to do.

Its only not unfair when there is no possibility of either option.

A poor man may perceive others, and conclude that he could be rich, therefore it is unfair that he isn't when they are.

A man who lost a son in a war sees others with their sons, and may conclude that it is unfair he doesn't have his son

If there was no wealth disparity, there would be no unfairness about wealth

If the man hadn't lost his son, he couldn't feel that was unfair he was missing his while others had one.

If the serf felt there was no way for him to be a modern man, then there is no disparity, and no unfairness

If he perceives that he can step through that time portal and live a different life, he may feel unfairness.
 


Edited by RoyFairbank - April 25 2012 at 13:23
Back to Top
Guldbamsen View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 22002
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2012 at 13:38
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Life is like a box of chocolates - you never know..... Aaarrrgh damn, I knew it was too soon to quote Mr. Gump, no matter how right he, or his mother to be exact, might beEmbarrassed
Gah! ... you never know what? I've never seen the film on account of it having Tom Hanks in it and on account of it being too American (probably).
 
You can't leave me hanging in suspenders like that ... what? Why is life like a box of chocolates?
 
Life is like a box of chocolates...
 
... you never know which one is monkey poo?
 
...you never know whether they are injected with strychnine?
 
...you never know if anyone has already licked them to see what flavour they are?
 
...you never know whether you can lick them to see what flavour they are without getting caught?
 
...you never know whether the person who packed them washed their hands after that last bathroom break?
 
...you never know if the only reason your aunt bought you chocolates fro christmas was because that's what you bought her last year, and yes, it probably is the same box?
 
...you never know whether the person who bought them for you put any thought into it or simply chose the most innocuous mid-priced box they could find in the gas-station shop so they didn't appear over-keen or too cheap?
 
...you never know that the box of chocolates your girlfriend has just given you was really given to her by your brother who has been banging her while you were down the gym playing squash with your best friend that you've known since high school?
 
...you never know why your best friend that you've known since high school suddenly bought you some chocolates in a heart-shaped box, but perhaps now is the ideal time to stop going down the gym for a game of squash, or at least not sharing a communal shower with him afterwards?
 
...you never know that your wife bought you a box because she scratched your mint condition In The Court Of The Crimson King vinyl that you foolishly left on the turntable instead of putting it back in the protective dust-free lint-free acid-free paper sleeve like you normally do and hasn't summoned the courage to tell you so she put it in the protective dust-free lint-free acid-free paper sleeve in the hope you'll not notice?
 
...you never know whether the cacao farmers get quite such a fair trade from the fair trade agreements as the International Fair-trade Certification Mark would have you believe or whether the bulk of the premium paid by the chocolate manufacturers is absorbed into the system as management and administration costs so that a very small percentage of that money ever reaches the farmers, where estimates range from as little as 1.6% to 18% (yeah, I know) of the premium being paid to the farmers involved in the scheme?


Ritalin and coffee don't necessarily make for the best matchTongue 
Although that post gave me quite the chuckle earlier today. Nice one Dean.
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2012 at 13:42
Originally posted by RoyFairbank RoyFairbank wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

An intelligent medieval person would just recognize his life was different. Disparity does not equal unfairness. 


If disparity doesn't equal unfairness, then unfairness does not exist, and people's perception of it cannot be explained.


The reason something is unfair is that it is out of sync with what one could do or wouldn't have to do.

Its only not unfair when there is no possibility of either option.

A poor man may perceive others, and conclude that he could be rich, therefore it is unfair that he isn't when they are.

A man who lost a son in a war sees others with their sons, and may conclude that it is unfair he doesn't have his son

If there was no wealth disparity, there would be no unfairness about wealth

If the man hadn't lost his son, he couldn't feel that was unfair he was missing his while others had one.

If the serf felt there was no way for him to be a modern man, then there is no disparity, and no unfairness

If he perceives that he can step through that time portal and live a different life, he may feel unfairness.
 
Nearly... those (other) examples do not equate to the situation of a medieval person.
 
You are assuming that the disparity between medieval serf and a modern man is negative from his perspective. He could look at your life and see it completely differently from how you perceive it. Truth is we do not know exactly how medieval people lived - their lives were not documented, we make assumptions. What we do know is that after the industrial revolution the lives of working people got incredibly worse - conditions got worse, renumeration (pay or payment in kind) got worse, life expectancy got worse, the number of hours they were expected to work increased significantly, their free-time decreased and their relative freedom decreased (the industrial age created a different kind of serfdom, one the vast majority of us are still tithed to) - our current situation is arguably better than the early industrial working-classes (though most of us still toil long hours for a wage that is disparate to that of our employers)... we still work longer hours and have fewer holidays than our medieval ancestors (where every holy day was a holiday). We measure our lives by achievement and possessions - medieval serfs would not comprehend that concept.


Edited by Dean - April 25 2012 at 14:09
What?
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2012 at 13:54
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Ritalin and coffee don't necessarily make for the best matchTongue 
Although that post gave me quite the chuckle earlier today. Nice one Dean.
I don't drink coffee. However I will admit to overdoing the Hershey Milk Duds that my boss brought back from his visit to the USA yesterday Wink
What?
Back to Top
Gerinski View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 4486
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2012 at 13:58
Fairness is a purely human construct, there's no way life could be fair or unfair unless you are a theist.
 
And BTW, this is one of the basic points where theism is attacked and yet theists do not seem to have a way out other than saying that justice (read "fairness") will come in the afterlife.
 
The laws of nature are quasi-deterministic and weirdly living things appear to have some degree of freewill, and as such it seems that there's quite a lot we can do to command our own future.
 
But there is always unpredictability, arising from either the complexity of life (chaos theory) or from the fundamental randomness of the universe (quantum theory).
On top we have the element of human perception, that your son gets killed in an accident is simply a normal happening of nature, people die and some of them do so in accidents, but because it's your son and you have been leading a honest life you may perceive it as unfair.
 
A certain event may look fair for some and unfair for others, don't want to elaborate but just think of some event as seen by a radical jew and by a radical palestinian...
 
So life is neither fair or unfair, life goes its way, it's just that certain humans may perceive the event as fair or as unfair.
 
 
Back to Top
Guldbamsen View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 22002
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2012 at 13:58
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Ritalin and coffee don't necessarily make for the best matchTongue 
Although that post gave me quite the chuckle earlier today. Nice one Dean.
I don't drink coffee. However I will admit to overdoing the Hershey Milk Duds that my boss brought back from his visit to the USA yesterday Wink


Looks delicious, and quite bizarrely we seem to be back at the chocolate once again. What was that Gump's mother once said about 'em?Tongue
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams
Back to Top
Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15783
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2012 at 14:01
Originally posted by RoyFairbank RoyFairbank wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

An intelligent medieval person would just recognize his life was different. Disparity does not equal unfairness. 


If disparity doesn't equal unfairness, then unfairness does not exist, and people's perception of it cannot be explained.



Fairness doesn't exist, yet humans exhibits an incredibly strong of inner sense of what it is. I'd say that it exists. Does poetic justice similarly not exist?

I see the point you're getting at, and I agree to an extent, but it's false how you've stated it. I have blue eyes and you have brown eyes, nobody is really going to say that's unfair. I answer a question on a test, and it gets marked wrong. You answer a question identically on a test, but the teacher marks it right because he wants to get into your pants. Most people are going to say that's unfair. Disparate =/= unfairness. You could say it's a necessary condition for unfairness, but the equality wouldn't hold.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Back to Top
JJLehto View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2012 at 15:08
eh kindanotreallysorta
Back to Top
Textbook View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2012 at 15:51
A theist could say that life isn't fair, but the afterlife is.
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2012 at 16:04

So could an atheist or a well trained parrot.

What?
Back to Top
Epignosis View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Eclectic Prog Team

Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32337
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2012 at 16:06
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by RoyFairbank RoyFairbank wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

An intelligent medieval person would just recognize his life was different. Disparity does not equal unfairness. 


If disparity doesn't equal unfairness, then unfairness does not exist, and people's perception of it cannot be explained.



Fairness doesn't exist, yet humans exhibits an incredibly strong of inner sense of what it is. I'd say that it exists. Does poetic justice similarly not exist?

I see the point you're getting at, and I agree to an extent, but it's false how you've stated it. I have blue eyes and you have brown eyes, nobody is really going to say that's unfair. I answer a question on a test, and it gets marked wrong. You answer a question identically on a test, but the teacher marks it right because he wants to get into your pants. Most people are going to say that's unfair. Disparate =/= unfairness. You could say it's a necessary condition for unfairness, but the equality wouldn't hold.


Fairness / unfairness exists, but it is limited to context.  If I am playing Monopoly and I am the banker and I am sneaking fifties into my stash, then the game is unfair.

But it does not follow from my cheating that "life" is (or could be) fair or unfair.
Back to Top
Epignosis View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Eclectic Prog Team

Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32337
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2012 at 16:07
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

A theist could say that life isn't fair, but the afterlife is.


Or a theist might not believe in any afterlife.  Wink
Back to Top
Textbook View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2012 at 16:17
Epig: Yes, yes, we sometimes use words in a general sense that doesn't encompass all possible inclusions, very good, you make this point quite regularly.
Dean: You gotta let this hard-on you have for me go. This thing you're doing following me around and picking on all my posts... it's just not fair.

Edited by Textbook - April 25 2012 at 16:18
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2012 at 16:49
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

Dean: You gotta let this hard-on you have for me go. This thing you're doing following me around and picking on all my posts... it's just not fair.
Only until someone better turns up. I am that fickle and you're not that good.
What?
Back to Top
RoyFairbank View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 07 2008
Location: Somewhere
Status: Offline
Points: 1072
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2012 at 16:57
What is life? Are we talking about an unreachable abstraction?

There is life as a human in human society,

and "life".... abstract existence....

Abstract existence as an abstraction intrinsically has no meaning, so of course it can neither be fair or unfair....

Concrete life, as a certain human being in a certain human society, is a different matter....

As has been said, it would then be a subjective matter, I would add, based on perceived disparity....

If the disparity is not percieved... then it would not be unfair. The serf in the example may or may not perceive disparity, as I said, he may see his life as superior... it is really irrelevant. If he does happen to perceive a negative disparity, he is sensing unfairness.

On the other hand, if he thought his lifestyle was superior, then perhaps he would sense a disparity in his favor, unfairness in his favor. So unfairness does not have to be negative or positive, or one or the other.

As for the understanding about disparity and unfairness, it is borne out even by the dictionary definition:

disproportionate; undue; beyond what is proper or fitting: an unfair share.

Back to Top
Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15783
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2012 at 17:21
I can give you 1000 examples to demonstrate that there's no equality of concepts. I could probably do a literature search that reveals the same thing has been shown experimentally. It's just unrealistic to say that they represent the same thing. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Back to Top
RoyFairbank View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 07 2008
Location: Somewhere
Status: Offline
Points: 1072
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2012 at 18:53
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I can give you 1000 examples to demonstrate that there's no equality of concepts. I could probably do a literature search that reveals the same thing has been shown experimentally. It's just unrealistic to say that they represent the same thing. 


There is some type of disparity in every example of unfairness, I think you are being to restrictive in your understanding of disparity, and too abstract about unfairness. If it is not based on the cognition of differences, what is it based on?

As I have pointed out, unfairness is not necessarily negative or positive. It is not some abstract state of negativity, but the product of you or something being in a certain real position vis a vis potential selfs, situations, or similar others/objects which allows an understanding of being unallowed to fulfill said potential, or being allowed to do so while others/or different objects do not fulfill potential in relation to self, situation or object. The range of things and situations covered by this is immense, and not limited to any one example or simply "jealousy."

Unfairness is the subjective side of Disparity, its objective side.

Unfairness should not be abstracted into just a negative feeling, which renders it incomprehensible. Anything "bad" (abstraction) is "unfair" (abstraction) and life (abstract existence) is not "good" (abstraction) or "bad" (abstraction), so it is not "unfair" (abstraction) ... what does that even mean? This is idealistic analysis divorced from any materialistic analysis, but best not to get into that again.



 




Edited by RoyFairbank - April 25 2012 at 18:56
Back to Top
Textbook View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2012 at 19:04

Dean: So if you're with me until someone better turns up, that implies that I'm currently the best.

 
I am the best* on the forum.
 
I WIN.
 
*The best at being annoying, apparently, but STILL THE BEST.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.250 seconds.

Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.