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Modern Prog |
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laztozia 
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Joined: June 28 2011 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 12 |
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 Topic: Modern ProgPosted: April 26 2012 at 04:24 |
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Hi guys,
Been thinking a lot about this recently. How would you define modern progressive rock? Is it a genre in and of itself or is it simply an echo of what has gone before? I was recently having a conversation with John Mitchell of It Bites regarding this very subject, and we came to the conclusion that too much emphasis is placed on the genre, 'prog', rather than the music itself. Many recognised figures in the music business seem to disregard 'prog' as something of a guilty pleasure, or something to be contemplated by fans of science fiction and high fantasy. I personally believe music is a flexible medium and any given subject can be communicated through any given genre. Although I'll always be a 'progger' at heart, I like to think that as times change, the definition of 'prog' changes too - 'evolves' if you will. As a writer for example I like to work with melodies and ideas - the genre sort of builds itself in the production stage. Any thoughts on this subject? When we hear the word 'prog' are our heads filled with pre-conceptions? Ian
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Snow Dog
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Errors & Omissions Team Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Online Status: Offline Posts: 32923 |
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Posted: April 26 2012 at 04:34 |
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Some of it is an..well a kind of echo if you like....and some bands which we define here as prog bring something different.
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Coldness doth get away with the badness.
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dr prog
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Joined: September 25 2010 Location: Melbourne Online Status: Offline Posts: 619 |
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Posted: April 26 2012 at 06:11 |
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I listen to 70s if I want prog. Nearly all modern prog is guitar/vocal dominated sh*t lol
But I only rate Crimson, Genesis of early 70s as half a good as most people in here though Edited by dr prog - April 26 2012 at 06:13 |
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Textbook
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Posted: April 26 2012 at 08:14 |
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moshkito
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Posted: April 26 2012 at 12:56 |
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Agreed!
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Some old holy curmudgeon said from his holy trinity of a chapala ... none of the hits, none of the time ... is always better sex for your and your lover!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Floydian42
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Joined: January 13 2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 839 |
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Posted: April 26 2012 at 18:26 |
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It's not so much prog as maybe something like post-prog? It carries the spirit in the essence well retaining a vibe different, unless it's a retro-prog band. That's a whole nother' thing.
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Progosopher
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Joined: May 12 2009 Location: The other shore Online Status: Offline Posts: 2461 |
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Posted: April 26 2012 at 22:06 |
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I am in agreement with John MItchell. We attach so much to labels, but as often as not good music defies labels. We are at a point where it seems like every band represents its own genre, when in truth every band only represents itself. Labels, like all words, change meaning over time, sometimes as a natural evolution and sometimes by deliberate activity (so I also agree with you that 'Prog' has changed its meaning over the years). Labels make it easier to identify something, and they do have their place. Modern Prog is to a large extent an echo of earlier Prog in the same way that modern Blues is an echo of ealier Blues. All artists have their influences which must come earlier. Indeed all music, all art, is an echo of what has come before. As Ian Anderson once said, it's all the same seven notes just organized by a different monkey. But to say that something is an echo is not say it is a carbon-copy or a clone. A good artist will put something individual and unique into the work. Echoes. Ripples. The Revealing Science of God. Everyday. These are all words and phrases for the same thing.
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After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music. ~Aldous Huxley
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spknoevl
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Joined: December 14 2011 Location: Dallas, TX Online Status: Offline Posts: 296 |
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Posted: April 27 2012 at 07:49 |
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There is so much cross-pollination of music genres these days, many bands are hard to pin down. Would you call Trey Gunn's releases progressive rock-world-jazz fusion? Many elements of what we once consider prog rock have been assimilated into the mainstream by bands that one would never consider prog. Maybe labels help explain the music to someone who's never heard it, but other than that, I see no use for them. Good music is good music.
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http://martinwebb.bandcamp.com
The notes are just an interesting way to get from one silence to the next - Mick Gooderick |
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Manuel
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Posted: April 27 2012 at 09:46 |
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In the early days of rock music, there was a tendency to go beyond the boundaries of rock (as many other musicians from other genres had done in the past), bringing elements from other genres, like jazz, blues, classical, country, etc. Because of this, the music was called "Progressive", and the artists who wrote this type of music were simply trying to make the best music they could (as Steve Hackett once pointed out in an interview).
Over the years, many artists tried to emulate that sound/style of music, and "Prog" as a genre became a tendency, were being prog became and issue, and the long pieces, odd meters, long and elaborate instrumental parts became the norm, and to be prog, you must fit this parameters. Even though it has it's pros, the fact remains that as a genre, prog is not necessarily progressive (and vice-versa), and the limitations that this brings are obvious. I'm not trying to say prog is a bad thing, but I'm just stating he obvious, as we can see through this forum and other similar websites. |
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moshkito
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Posted: April 27 2012 at 09:57 |
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Actually I think the cross-polination thing is intentional and is a by-product of the internet becoming an "international" community ... something that is hard for most listeners to actually enjoy and appreciate, because of the idea of "styles" and "top ten" mentality of many places, specially the English speaking world, where the unbelievable assault of advertising and might makes right, gets you thinking that something is right and good and the rest is not, and can not possibly be! And of course, the rest of the world can't possibly have music as good!
(PA, at least, will bash that quickly!)
In the end, the faster we learn to appreciate "music" and not because of the attention it is getting, the more we can appreciate many of the things out there ... but I don't know that a place like this will be able to survive if there isn't a "theme" or "idea" to keep folks here.
But this is one of the best music boards around, even with a turkey or two on board, an idiot like me, and a hot dog with lots of mustard on it! But the music checked out and reviewed and tasted here ... is second to none!
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Some old holy curmudgeon said from his holy trinity of a chapala ... none of the hits, none of the time ... is always better sex for your and your lover!
www.pedrosena.com |
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earlyprog
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Posted: April 27 2012 at 10:10 |
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Now, that's "modern prog" - the answer to the thread question! At least a major component of the answer.
(Great observation by the way, spknoevl. I'm not the only who acknowledge that it seems.)
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Love is the answer
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Nick Dilley
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Posted: April 27 2012 at 12:51 |
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I'm writing a blog on this at this very moment, actually. (http://withinareverie.blogspot.com/)
I doubt everyone will agree with everything that I say, but I hope you can see my logic. There are only two of 6 parts up right now, but more to come soon. Long story short, I think that progressive is a spirit. The moment you label a certain group of characteristics or artists as "progressive" you go against what progressive means. Progressive is the spirit to continually do something new, to continually invest time in exploring the awesome power of creativity and imagination. Sometimes people criticize the whole "new for the sake of being new isn't good". That can be true. I think that being new just to be new can be useful, but it does not mean that just because something is new, it is also good. So progressive, to me, is doing or trying to do what hasn't been done before. I think this can be done on the level of the song, the career, or the movement. In any case, their is bad prog and good prog which is a subjective matter, like bad country and good country, bad rock and good rock--or just bad music and good music. In my view, bands can move in and out of being progressive, but still write good music or bad music entirely separate from that music's "progressive-ness." That being said, I bring you the smiley band:   
Edited by Nick Dilley - April 27 2012 at 12:53 |
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Progging the Rock, Rocking the Prog.
soundcloud.com/withinareverie withinareverie.blogspot.com facebook.com/withinareverie Twitter: @WithinaReverie |
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RoyFairbank
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Joined: January 07 2008 Location: Somewhere Online Status: Offline Posts: 1072 |
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Posted: April 27 2012 at 12:56 |
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Prog
Dilute Once - Neo Prog Dilute Twice - Non Prog |
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RyanElliott
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Posted: April 29 2012 at 05:52 |
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I've always though that the genre title acts as a guideline to what one can expect from a certain artist.
Prog has become in some ways quite an ambiguous term and I find that a lot of modern prog is traced from the whole Cyncic, Dream Theater influence and with an abundance of artists on the internet it's hard to not come to conclusion that modern prog is overly contrived music that appears more like a technical exercise for a musician instead of something actually artistic. I agree with John Mitchell in the sense that there is too much focus around categorising and branding (I hate the word "Branding")instead of artists developing their own aesthetic and perception. Even though 70's prog outlines King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Genesis, Yes none of them sound identical to each other they are all absolutely extraordinary in themselves. If you look at the progressive music today, the bands that are successful are the ones who have built their own perception, identity and philosophies, bands such as Dream Theater, Anathema, Opeth, Porcupine Tree. The modern day artists that will overall achieve something I believe are the ones who focus on their aesthetic without pigeonholing themselves. The more music you listen to that's different as well the more likely your mind is open to writing something that is truly original. Edited by RyanElliott - April 29 2012 at 05:54 |
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rogerthat
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Posted: April 29 2012 at 06:02 |
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The question is whether it is of much importance at all whether something is called prog or not. It might be important information for a database like PA but it is not of much importance to the artist. Where it concerns my tastes, jazz rock and Canterbury are probably the only genres where I have come to like a certain sound and might listen to music that evokes that sound. In other genres, I am more interested in whether an artist can bring an original experience to the table, not whether it is prog or not.
And as far as classification goes, additions to the database seem to be done with a fairly inclusive approach. I only say "seems to be" because I am not one of the collabs and so am judging from the outside. I don't think artists like Bjork or Tori Amos or Radiohead would be added to prog genres on this website if they did believe in only classifying that music as prog which is only an echo of the 70s prog and not something fresh. Or for that matter, the metal sub genres, which is a "new" kind of prog that evolved quite independently of the prog scene of the 70s. Edited by rogerthat - April 29 2012 at 06:04 |
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moshkito
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Posted: April 30 2012 at 12:41 |
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But you have to be careful with that ... because in several places, it's almost like the "guideline" is a solid double line on the ground, that can not be crossed, and thus, you will find, in this web site a lot of reviews ... will say this is not progressive, or this is not symphonic ... and that will tell you that the "definitions" is where the problem lies.
Not sure about that. I really think that the biggest issue is that a lot of these things are bordering into other areas in music ... and because we're comparing it to Jesus, it does not measure up! Not many will either! In fact ... NONE ... and the inevitable that prog stunk up the house in the 80's and 90's starts! Which is total crap, because time never was when music wasn't anything and everything ... but we did not hear it, and that means that it didn't exist?
Places like this one, help debunk that ... but we still get folks posting that kind of stuff, which pretty much tells you that they were looking for ELP2, or YES2, or Genesis3, or KC4 ... and it ain't gonna happen, specially when thos efolks themselves are not interested in it!
This started with the Internet, and these folks were not stuck on some old stuff. The other band that should be mentioned here is Marillion, who went on to actually have their fan club put up the finances for one of their album and they all got an autographed album and much more as a thank you.
You go with the technology of today ... it's really simple. Which means that I could not possibly do what Genesis did then ... and sound that different ... not to mention that you would bash me senselessly!
If I have an issue it is that we're not allowing the old stuff to go its own way. That is not to say that "romantic literature and music" did not have its time span ... it did ... or baroque ... it did ... and so on. It's a new day and time ... and "progressive" is over ... and the sooner we find a new theme and stop subdividing "romantic" or "baroque" into 1500 sub-divisions, the better off we will be.
You know what scares me the most and bums me out? Too many folks in the music departments of America still say that this is not music! It's just pop music and radio music.
And we're not doing anything about it, to make those professors eat their words. And we need to, if we want this precious period in music live longer than ... just another rock'n'roll band ... like the Moody Blues used to say!
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Some old holy curmudgeon said from his holy trinity of a chapala ... none of the hits, none of the time ... is always better sex for your and your lover!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Dellinger
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Joined: June 18 2009 Location: Mexico Online Status: Offline Posts: 3752 |
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Posted: April 30 2012 at 13:05 |
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The thing about people looking for ELP2, Yes2, Genesis3, KC4, etc, is that when they get their new yes, ELP, etc, then they disregard them for being clones and not being original... so what any new band needs to do, is whatever they want to do and not try so hard to please anybody, in the end, that's what the biggest and most lasting artists have done... and surely enough, not only in prog, but in other generes... even in other forms of art besides music. Because that's when the barriers of preconception are broken and real originality can be achieved, and thus genious can be achieved. |
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Dean
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Posted: April 30 2012 at 13:15 |
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The boundaries have always been fuzzy grey areas, never solid double lines, that's why definitions are vague and to some, ill-defined. If "we" make the distinction between one genre and the next a hard and fast line there will be gaps for bands that don't fit one or the other to fall between. Everything is a compromise - we need some subgenres to make the 7000 artists we list here more manageable, and we need to recognise the "schools" and "movements" of Progressive rock that naturally occur - but if we take that to the extreme we would have a new subgenre for every band and that would be just silly. Compromise and fuzzy definitions is in itself a compromise of fuzzy definition.
There was no definitive cut-off points or transition steps between Renaissance, Baroque and Classical - they overlapped and within them there were distinctly different styles and genres of music that collectively are know as "Baroque" or "Classical" - Baroque is a broad definition, just as Progressive Rock is a broad defintion. The Baroque era was over 150 years yet the musical styles within that era progressed and changed as new composers came onto the "scene" - some created new forms of Baroque music, other stuck with "tradition" - no one can say Bach produced the same style of music as Purcell, yet both are "Baroque". I think we can afford Progressive Music similar consideration over its 40 year timeline.
Who cares what musicologists say? Where is the kudos in having your favourite form of popular music accepted under the umbrella of "serious" music? The longevity of any good music is not determined by some professor in the rarefied isolation of a university... it is the listener, the public, the audience, who decide these things.
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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman |
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Gerinski
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Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Belgium Online Status: Offline Posts: 2149 |
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Posted: April 30 2012 at 14:39 |
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I believe that most prog artists do not care too much about the labels and certainly do not deliberately write prog by the numbers, although a few certainly do.
They just make the music they like in the way they feel it. If they like prog and that influence permeates what they do, it may sound derivative to us, but they are just making the music that comes out from within their brains.
Labels are helpful but anyone with a bit of common sense is aware of their limitations.
Musicians do not need to make something really innovative in order to be regarded as great musicians. There can be good derivative music. I try to avoid prejudices when judging if I like music or not, I tend not to care much about the sub-genre, or whether it sounds derivative or fresh, I simply listen and judge what I'm hearing.
But of course I know which broad styles or features in music I tend to enjoy the most, so inevitably there are sub-genres which in general I tend to like more than others.
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Dean
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Posted: April 30 2012 at 15:04 |
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^ |
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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman |
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