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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2012 at 19:16
Not if you educate people about balance and cause and effect. Making the world worse in order to make money personally still makes the world worse, and it's not in your self-interest to cause deterioration to the place you live in because eventually people will be paying the piper or people you care about could be under the gun.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2012 at 21:09
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

Not if you educate people about balance and cause and effect. Making the world worse in order to make money personally still makes the world worse, and it's not in your self-interest to cause deterioration to the place you live in because eventually people will be paying the piper or people you care about could be under the gun.


Cause and effect is in the long run and as my economics professor was fond of saying, the long run never seems to come.  I have seen many instances of short term, selfish decision making from people in positions of power.  Not just politicians of whom expectations have probably become very low, but heads of large organizations, who declare large bonuses for themselves even as the company makes losses and the rest of the staff is subject to austerity measures.  Once you multiply the financial stakes to a certain level - and this mainly happened in the 90s and onwards - it becomes difficult to weigh pros and cons and the opportunity to make a killing looks irresistible.  This kind of thinking eventually percolates downward so that it's every man for himself and the idea of the greater good of all is merely paid lip service to.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2012 at 22:57
But this doesn't have to be the case. Long-range thinking is one of the defining elements of being intelligent/educated. With development of intellect and education, people can be made to see beyond the next five minutes. If this is stressed, you can end up with people more aware of negative consequences, who subsequently are less prone to wrecking things.
 
However, the problem is that the academics and intellectuals who seek the end I describe above, are in competition with producers of material goods, who want us to be thoughtless and impulsive so that we throw money at them in return for next to nothing. They have already successfully established the notion of learning=bad, wasting money=good in popular culture and reversing that is an uphill battle to say the least.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2012 at 23:36
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:


 
However, the problem is that the academics and intellectuals who seek the end I describe above, are in competition with producers of material goods, who want us to be thoughtless and impulsive so that we throw money at them in return for next to nothing. They have already successfully established the notion of learning=bad, wasting money=good in popular culture and reversing that is an uphill battle to say the least.


That is indeed my point as well, funnily enough.  Well, the rich have to endorse and live up to a value system, because, however vague a value system may be in theory, in practice it at least enforces some measure of discipline and consideration for the other person.   In my parents' generation, people didn't turn away hungry passersby even if they didn't have enough to feed their own family for the night in the first place.  Today, we don't even have the manners and courtesy to vacate the table for another customer once we are done, even when the restaurant is crowded.  It seems a waiter has to walk up and nudge them gently to tell them to move on.  People bathe their cars in several buckets of water everyday even when there is a nationwide water shortage in summer.  I don't know where we are getting to with so much callousness and selfishness.   And it's when the great water crisis of the 21st century REALLY kicks in that the 'fun' will start. 

By the way, it is not as if a person pursuing a respectable but modestly paying profession cannot make enough to meet his ends even today.   At least in my country teachers are remunerated more handsomely than before because good teachers are in short supply.  But there is seemingly no place for any kind of idealism in choosing a career; everyone is in a rat race for the jobs that pay best.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2012 at 00:06
I personally will be very very surprised if WWIII does not kick off within my life time (I'm 30) and I expect the water crisis to play a large role in it.*
But more on topic, I suspect this "people in the past were naturally more polite" thing is bollocks. One, people always lionise the past. Two, I'm not sure they were polite, more deferential to those they believed to be superior and/or concerned with what others thought/said about them, which caused them to behave as though they were polite.
 
The Occupy Movement seemed to be something of a reaction against the rat race mentality, though an ineffectual one.
 
*Yes, yes, I won't be surprised because it's impossible to be surprised at something not happening in your lifetime as it requires you first be dead, thanks Epignosis.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2012 at 00:14
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

But more on topic, I suspect this "people in the past were naturally more polite" thing is bollocks. One, people always lionise the past. Two, I'm not sure they were polite, more deferential to those they believed to be superior and/or concerned with what others thought/said about them, which caused them to behave as though they were polite.
 


I can affirm that just that in my formative years and (ongoing) youth, I have seen a lot of changes.  Maybe in a third world country that is still maturing, these changes happen more drastically and can be observed while in advanced nations, it is more gradual.  

I had never seen road rage in my city until up to the last five years. Since then, seeing drivers come to blows even to the point sometimes of bloodshed, has become a fairly 'normal' sight.   True, traffic gets more painful year after year but it's not as if it was all smooth sailing earlier.  People were more tolerant and patient before, now they are overaggressive and short tempered or at least have more capacity to be.   It's there in the trains too, in the neighbourhood. 

In a bizarre incident, a housewife called up the police and got a few kids in the neighbourhood sent to jail for the crime of playing cricket to pass time during their summer holidays.  Even the idea of the police recognizing this as a 'complaint' would have been unthinkable earlier.  We are becoming very petty and fight with each other for absolutely stupid things.  So, to that extent, I have to disagree; it is not just any misplaced nostalgic yearning. I have seen firsthand how a once friendly citizenry is becoming rather uptight and given the sheer population density it supports, that is a very sad development.   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2012 at 00:22
The problem I have with "people are less polite nowadays because they are just magically becoming terrible for no apparent reason" is that it suggests as though there is some sort of mysterious force that alters people's basic nature over time outside of causality and event.
 
Remember that back in the days of the Wild West, people were routinely shot for cheating at cards. This is because at the time, many of the traveling gunslingers could not or would not find steady paying jobs, so cards were a serious source of revenue and by cheating at cards you were threatening their livelihood.

Nowadays we don't shoot people for cheating at cards so I guess we've become more peaceful. Or is it that circumstances have changed?
 
There's more road rage because there's more traffic.


Edited by Textbook - May 01 2012 at 00:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2012 at 00:32
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

The problem I have with "people are less polite nowadays because they are just magically becoming terrible for no apparent reason" is that it suggests as though there is some sort of mysterious force that alters people's basic nature over time outside of causality and event.  


There is no mystery to it.  People only try to be nice to the ones they have to be, like their boss or anybody they do business with.   Who cares if you are rude to your fellow commuter? We will simply rationalize it as he has probably been rude to somebody else some other time himself, so big deal.    Things get to a point where the means don't really matter while the end(s) become ever more important which puts a lot of pressure on the social system.  
 

Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:


Remember that back in the days of the Wild West, people were routinely shot for cheating at cards. This is because that at the time, many of the traveling gunslingers could not or would not find steady paying jobs, so cards were a serious source of revenue and by cheating at cards you were threatening their livelihood.



But you are speaking of a certain violent class of people who might behave that way.   There were horseriding dacoits earlier but they have now disappeared.  Doesn't mean everybody back then was just a dacoit.   The underworld was very active until about 10 years back in my city and there were routine 'encounters' with the police.  Doesn't mean people like us who depended on steady, respectable jobs had anything to do with the underworld or harboured delusions that we could behave like gangsters.  But lifestyle and money makes the man arrogant and inconsiderate.  You are what you are, not what you wear or eat but these words may well have no meaning left today. 
 
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:


There's more road rage because there's more traffic.


Not really, at least speaking for 'my' reality.  The density of traffic has gone up but it moves a little faster than before so the average time taken between two places is more or less what it was before.  What has changed is the make-up of cars that people drive and the most imperceptible scratch on an expensive car can still provoke a fit of fury.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2012 at 00:38
I don't think you've got the "getting shot playing cards" thing quite right because while there are still gangsters and always will be, the difference is that back in those days, getting shot for cheating at cards was acceptable to most people. If it were very firmly established that I was a card cheat, let's say I was caught red-handed in front of a crowd of onlookers, ordinary citizens and lawmen alike would've sat on their porch reading the newspaper while my murderer strolled away.
 
Today, I don't think the mainstream is "cool" with people getting shot for cheating at cards or any game. Violence is like energy, it doesn't grow or shrink, it just moves elsewhere.


Edited by Textbook - May 01 2012 at 00:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2012 at 00:47
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

I don't think you've got the "getting shot playing cards" thing quite right because while there are still gangsters and always will be, the difference is that back in those days, getting shot for cheating at cards was acceptable to most people. If it were very firmly established that I was a card cheat, let's say I was caught red-handed in front of a crowd of onlookers, ordinary citizens and lawmen alike would've sat on their porch reading the newspaper while my murdered strolled away.
 
Today, I don't think the mainstream is "cool" with people getting shot for cheating at cards or any game. Violence is like energy, it doesn't grow or shrink, it just moves elsewhere.


Yes, I agree, it makes more sense now.    But that's a bad thing in a way.  If violence gets directed to serious business rather than playing cards, it hampers our capacity to co-operate.   In the cards example, it still has to do with cheating in the midst of a few people playing a game.   Whereas somebody complaining to the police against kids playing a game smacks of a self centred attitude.  I am sure that lady would feel aggrieved if somebody did so to her own kid but it is that capacity to put yourself in the other person's shoes that was missing in her actions.  I especially have difficulty grasping how a married woman would want to deprive some children of their childhood...I can understand a cranky, lonely old man doing something like that even if it would still leave a bad taste.     
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2012 at 01:01
I think your getting interested in the marital status of the person doing the complaining is a bit suspicious. How on earth is it relevant?
Either it's something worth complaining about or it's not. Also, here's the entirety of the story you told:
"In a bizarre incident, a housewife called up the police and got a few kids in the neighbourhood sent to jail for the crime of playing cricket to pass time during their summer holidays."
 
This is obviously not what happened.
 
Housewife: Hello? Police? Some kids are playing cricket to pass the time. Arrest them at once.
Police: RIGHT! OFF TO JAIL YOU LOT.
 
There's clearly some context missing. Could you link to an article describing this case?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2012 at 01:09
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

I think your getting interested in the marital status of the person doing the complaining is a bit suspicious. How on earth is it relevant?
Either it's something worth complaining about or it's not. Also, here's the entirety of the story you told:
"In a bizarre incident, a housewife called up the police and got a few kids in the neighbourhood sent to jail for the crime of playing cricket to pass time during their summer holidays."
 
This is obviously not what happened.
 
Housewife: Hello? Police? Some kids are playing cricket to pass the time. Arrest them at once.
Police: RIGHT! OFF TO JAIL YOU LOT.
 
There's clearly some context missing. Could you link to an article describing this case?


The marital status is relevant because I would expect a mother to take kids making a ruckus in her stride more easily.   In either event, it is a non issue and shouldn't be worth complaining about but I find it a little more scary to think that a married woman would do that.  Well, we have not been in a nuclear family setup for very long and ladies in the neighbourhood would sort of babysit the kids until not so long ago so this is a sea change in approach. 

Here's the link...you can read, I haven't made up any part of the story. It IS as bizarre as I narrated it.   This report doesn't mention her marital status but I remember it was mentioned when I read it in the papers:

http://www.mid-day.com/news/2012/apr/220412-Two-hours-in-jail-for-a-game-of-cricket.htm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2012 at 01:12
It's hardly five minutes by foot from where I reside.  Praise the lord that I don't know her personally, otherwise I would have to confront her for such extreme pettiness and such an utter lack of compassion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2012 at 01:18
Do you think you could find a write-up that's a little more subjective?
 
And they were not "arrested for playing cricket" but for making inappropriate noise in an inappropriate area. Whether they really were doing that I don't know, but that's the actual charge.

But more importantly, why are we discussing this incident? Do you think annoying old biddies or thoughtless thugs in uniform are a new phenomenon?
 
The earlier part of our conversation brought this to mind:
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2012 at 01:26
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:



But more importantly, why are we discussing this incident? Do you think annoying old biddies or thoughtless thugs in uniform are a new phenomenon?



I don't know, I guess there is some cultural gulf here because these kind of things ARE very new in India.  They just didn't happen. I don't know what the elite are up to but middle class and lower class life was based on co-operation and friendships.  We have even broken windows of cars and apartments in our time; I dread to think if some such sulky cat had got us detained for that.  Some people now leave their ageing parents all alone to fend for themselves, or even murder them if they stand to gain money from it.   Relationships are very important in sub continental culture so I don't know where such rashness is going to take us to.  And it's not just me, many people from my age group or slightly older share these apprehensions.  There have always been thugs, murderers and thieves but if people that you could once trust and be friends with might stab you in the back, that makes life more complicated.

EDIT:  And playing cricket on a public street is not inappropriate in India.  It happens all the time and when kids play, they do make a noise.  Kids play badminton downstairs next to my apartment complex, big deal.  Again,  it would be hard for me to explain the significance of such things because 'noisy' is not considered a sin or a nuisance here.  At least it wasn't until some NGOs began to lobby for noise pollution norms and such.  Festivals are celebrated by the community with a lot of fervour here.  Just because it's on a street next to somebody's house doesn't make the street that somebody's property.  There are not enough public parks and kids have to play on the street.


Edited by rogerthat - May 01 2012 at 01:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2012 at 06:36
I think you're getting a bit hysterical. Every generation predicts the downfall of civilization with the next, mostly out of resentment of the fact that they'll be dying.
 
I note also that you moan that no one obeys the law anymore in the same breath as saying that the law is enforced too harshly these days.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2012 at 07:52
I think you're confusing "the wild west" with Clint Eastwood movies.


But I agree on most points. Civilization is at a tipping point. We live in the information OVERLOAD age. There is now documented computer evidence of some people's bowel movements, and if you respond to this evidence, companies are going to use what you say and what you said it about to sell things to you. Things are not completely ok. The world's moral compass is NOT going haywire though. Remember, it's no longer legal to kill black people or rape women. So just saying the world is getting worse in every aspect is silly. On the other hand, everything is getting worse... but it's not... but it is. Damn the 21st century is confusing.
 
A really good speech is in the first season of Weeds by Shane Botwin. Sure, it's a fictional TV show, but I related to it a LOT when it came out.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2012 at 08:21
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

I think you're getting a bit hysterical. Every generation predicts the downfall of civilization with the next, mostly out of resentment of the fact that they'll be dying.
 
I note also that you moan that no one obeys the law anymore in the same breath as saying that the law is enforced too harshly these days.


There is no law that says in any case that playing cricket in the compound of a building is an offence.  It was a poor step by the police, they don't have to act on any and every complaint made to them and usually they don't act on more legitimate complaints so this is not about enforcing laws harshly or leniently and not a contradiction. 

I cannot predict the future but I do believe that the direction in which things are going is wrong.  Now where that will lead to is anyone's guess, I will hope that things work out.  But again, that would need some remedial action from somewhere and above all, we will need to see some strong leadership eventually. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2012 at 08:28
Originally posted by Smurph Smurph wrote:

IThe world's moral compass is NOT going haywire though.



It might, though, if we continue along the current direction.  A morally bankrupt leadership cannot set a good example for anyone.  For the first time in years, I am hearing leading Indian industrialists literally urging the govt to act in the best interests of the nation and not worry about lobbies and vested interests.  LOL  It's very funny because for years, they tried to manipulate policy from the backdoor but they are now urging politicians to show some spine.



Originally posted by Smurph Smurph wrote:

So just saying the world is getting worse in every aspect is silly.


Indeed, it's not.  What concerns me chiefly is the inertia at the top.  People are shying away from tough decisions on several fronts and it is actually the sheer pace of economic developments that has kept the world going through these last few years, more than anything.  There is a lot of activity to keep us engaged but leaders are not willing to bite the bullet on anything.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2012 at 16:07
Well atheism is on the rise and atheism has been pretty firmly linked to more moral behaviour, so there's that to look forward to.
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