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do you like the "dark side" of the discography?

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kenethlevine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: do you like the "dark side" of the discography?
    Posted: April 29 2012 at 17:26
Originally posted by rogerthat

APP were not terribly infectious or astonishingly creative in their approach, but they had plenty of well crafted songs with a strong emotional centre.   I like them more, much more, than most AOR...easily.

agreed 100% with this and the previous post re APP.  I find everything up to Ammonia Avenue to be largely enjoyable, with the exception of Pyramid.  I actually haven't listened to anything more recent, so will have to check out Freudiana.  They are not my favourite group, but I believe there was a real sincerity there and they brought in the players to realize their visions.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Zombywoof Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:11
I find "The Final Cut", "Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking", "Stormwatch", "Heavy Horses", and "Catfish Rising" to be great records. Not sure about many of the others mentioned, though.

I even like "Under Wraps".

Burn the witch.

Edited by Zombywoof - April 29 2012 at 18:12
Continue the prog discussion here: http://zombyprog.proboards.com/index.cgi ...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Vobiscum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:18
I like PFloyd in the beginning. Before the classics.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AtomicCrimsonRush Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:32
I like some of the "other" such as:
Jethro Tull Dot Com - JT
90125 - Yes
Time - ELO
Discovery - ELO
Heavy Horses - Jethro Tull
Black Moon - ELP

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:33
Originally posted by Vobiscum

I like PFloyd in the beginning. Before the classics.

+1. The bootlegs are awesome. 'Sunshine' is one of my biggest favorites. 'Lucy Leave' and their rendition of 'I'm a King Bee' are few of the first things I learned to play on my electric guitar. 'Vegetable Man' is fun to learn Smile Wink .


Edited by Dayvenkirq - April 29 2012 at 18:36
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ProgEpics Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2012 at 01:55
Absolutely. I think long songs and odd time sigs are too often expected from prog fans, when in reality some of the best prog albums dont even have a long song on them (dark side of the moon, crime of the century, days of future passed) just to name a few.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ColonelClaypool Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2012 at 03:50
I much prefer On The Sunday of Life, Voyage 34, Insignificance, Yellow Hedgerow Dreamscape and everything else from the early days of PT rather than In Absentia, Deadwing, FOABP and The Incident.

Edited by ColonelClaypool - April 30 2012 at 03:51
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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2012 at 11:20
Originally posted by RoyFairbank

Almost every Prog band has a less appreciated part of its discography, which can range from ignored eras to unpopular works to simply less known or available albums. ... This is mainly the product of the longevity of Prog bands across different musical epochs and the ups and downs of artistic lifetimes.
 
I would like to suggest that we're more critical, and less appreciative of a composer's work than otherwise.
 
Today's composer is a "band", not an individual, and you do not sit here and say the same thing about Beethoven, Mozart, Bach or Stravinsky ... and yes, we do have our favorites, but in the end, we're not good listeners, because we are only hearing one thing and ignoring the rest, because it supposedly fits a description or other that we have for everything including the kitchen sink and our own silliness!
 
Originally posted by RoyFairbank

...
As such, I would suggest that common less appreciated albums and periods come most frequently
 
I have a hard time with this. I have over 35 CD's of Tangerine Dream. I have 35 CD's of Klaus Schulze. I have all of Pink Floyd. I have all 20 CD's from Ozric Tentacles. I have 30 CD's by Hawkwind.
 
I have NEVER looked at any of these CD's as ... "lesser" ... works by these composers.  And I find it sad that someone does this to Genesis, ELP, Alan Parsons and Yes ... when -- if you added it all up, it would suggest that's a massive amount of music and you and I might prefer this one or that one CD ... but it does not lessen the output of the artist.
 
And it doesn't matter when it was or wasn't. It's been the same thing for hundreds of years, but we're simply not looking at these folks as artists or composers. They are a bunch of rocking morons, is what it all looks like!
 
How sad!
 
Originally posted by RoyFairbank

...
So I generally find the various dark sides of prog discographies to be rewarding and seldom as bad as their rating drops would indicate. A good band will often keep making good material or has made good material even in its pre-prog past, even if it changes what it is doing significantly over time. That said, crap is crap. But one man's trash is another man's treasure.Big smile
 
Like even Beethoven and Mozart did not have their bagatelles?
 
I have no problem with an objective discography. I do when someone says this record is progressive and that one is not. So I guess that Firebird Suite is classical and Petroushka is not ... and the problem would likely be that most folks have not heard the other piece, either! Beethoven's 5th and 9th are classical, but his 1st and 2nd are poop!
 
To me, this is where a "discography" and "biography" has to stop being subjective, and this is one of my (small) complaints here ... too many folks will reply to my comments, and not discuss anything ... which tells you they did not read and could not say anything of value to counter it. But their "comment" is more important than the substance behind it ...
 
I'm a writer. I'm used to some folks liking this and not that. I have fun with that ... but there is one problem that is nasty ... you can not DENY my vision, and for many folks here that even do reviews, they prefer to act like the composer/artist does not have the right to have his own vision. And to me, that is not only insulting, it is malicious and inappropriate! YOU, yourself, would demand that respect from anyone ... !
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2012 at 11:23
Wacko
Coldness doth get away with the badness.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Vibrationbaby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2012 at 13:00
Originally posted by presdoug

Usually, what is considered "the dark side" of a group ends up being something i don't like.
 
Some cases are untried, when i have not heard the music, like with ELP-never heard Love Beach, or In The Hot Seat, so can't pass judgment-what i have heard of Black Moon, i like (and i saw them on that tour)

one of the only groups whose "dark side" i have ended up embracing is Triumvirat, with their last two pop rock albums A La Carte and Russian Roulette, but both were initially a hard sell for me-it took decades before i liked them, but now i definitely do




Well, I dunno about those two abomonable Triumvirat piles of sh*t. Skeet shooting material as far as I'm concerned. I only bought Russian Roulette to if it was possible to get any worse. What is beyond belief is that both of them were releaed on CD.

As for Love Beach when it was released in Nov '78 we skipped school to wait for the record store to open. There's nothing wrong with it realy( well, maybe the cover and title ) But ELP were called into the president of Atlantic Records Ahmet Ertgun's office and given the "suggestion" to do something a bit more watered down which they did ( what's wrong with Canario ? ). You have to understand that they had taken pretty much everything over the top by '78. At least they continued to play the older material in concert and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think anything off Love Beach was played live. I still throw it on the turntable from time-to-time.  Rolling Stone Magazine said doing the dishes was a more creative act  than creating Love Beach.

EDIT : The Carl Palmer band Occasionally played Canario.


Edited by Vibrationbaby - April 30 2012 at 13:06
                
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Post Options Post Options   Quote silverpot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2012 at 13:05
I think it's easier to appreciate a deviation from the normal route by a band if you're not a devoted fan.

For instance, I never was much of a Yes fan, I like bits and pieces here and there in their "classic" catalogue. I'm not familiar with their 80s output, but their latest, Fly From Here, I really like, contrary to the band's "true" fans. 
Same with Opeth. I've never been able to listen to them, but now I have Heritage on constant spin. A very good album, IMO.
With Floyd it's different, my favorite band let me down heavily with The Final Cut. Although AMLOR and Bell were to me a huge improvement on that one. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote presdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2012 at 16:58
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby

Originally posted by presdoug

Usually, what is considered "the dark side" of a group ends up being something i don't like.
 
Some cases are untried, when i have not heard the music, like with ELP-never heard Love Beach, or In The Hot Seat, so can't pass judgment-what i have heard of Black Moon, i like (and i saw them on that tour)

one of the only groups whose "dark side" i have ended up embracing is Triumvirat, with their last two pop rock albums A La Carte and Russian Roulette, but both were initially a hard sell for me-it took decades before i liked them, but now i definitely do




Well, I dunno about those two abomonable Triumvirat piles of sh*t. Skeet shooting material as far as I'm concerned. I only bought Russian Roulette to if it was possible to get any worse. What is beyond belief is that both of them were releaed on CD.

As for Love Beach when it was released in Nov '78 we skipped school to wait for the record store to open. There's nothing wrong with it realy( well, maybe the cover and title ) But ELP were called into the president of Atlantic Records Ahmet Ertgun's office and given the "suggestion" to do something a bit more watered down which they did ( what's wrong with Canario ? ). You have to understand that they had taken pretty much everything over the top by '78. At least they continued to play the older material in concert and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think anything off Love Beach was played live. I still throw it on the turntable from time-to-time.  Rolling Stone Magazine said doing the dishes was a more creative act  than creating Love Beach.

EDIT : The Carl Palmer band Occasionally played Canario.
I should mention that there was an unexpected gateway to my liking the last two Triumvirat albums, and that was hearing songs from each performed on a live recording called Live in Germany in 1980. The music has a bit more bite to it live, and the band seem to be having a great time, and that was what turned my opinion of A La Carte and Russian Roulette around. I never really "understood" those albums until i heard the band live on record at that time period. Unfortunately the live album is hard to find.


Edited by presdoug - April 30 2012 at 17:40
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Post Options Post Options   Quote presdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2012 at 17:01
Originally posted by silverpot

I think it's easier to appreciate a deviation from the normal route by a band if you're not a devoted fan.

For instance, I never was much of a Yes fan, I like bits and pieces here and there in their "classic" catalogue. I'm not familiar with their 80s output, but their latest, Fly From Here, I really like, contrary to the band's "true" fans. 
Same with Opeth. I've never been able to listen to them, but now I have Heritage on constant spin. A very good album, IMO.
With Floyd it's different, my favorite band let me down heavily with The Final Cut. Although AMLOR and Bell were to me a huge improvement on that one. 
Quite the opposite with me. Triumvirat are my favorite band, and i am one of the biggest fans of theirs on the planet, yet they are one of the only groups in which i have come to like the "dark side" of (though, admittedly, not near as much as their real classics)


Edited by presdoug - April 30 2012 at 17:38
"and what music unites, man should not take apart"--Helmut Koellen                               
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MFP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2012 at 17:59
Originally posted by ColonelClaypool

I much prefer On The Sunday of Life, Voyage 34, Insignificance, Yellow Hedgerow Dreamscape and everything else from the early days of PT rather than In Absentia, Deadwing, FOABP and The Incident.

Me too.

The first three Opeth albums (along with Still Life) are the best they ever did.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kevin4peace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2012 at 22:51
I don't have much to add here, but I agree- ELO's Time is a masterpiece. Absolutely spectacular, and far from a 'guilty' pleasure. I also really like Gentle Giant's last two albums. Not necessarily prog, but certainly great new wavey pop.

Edited by kevin4peace - April 30 2012 at 22:53
Nothing to say here. Nothing at all. Nothing is easy.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2012 at 01:07
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby

Originally posted by presdoug

Usually, what is considered "the dark side" of a group ends up being something i don't like.
 
Some cases are untried, when i have not heard the music, like with ELP-never heard Love Beach, or In The Hot Seat, so can't pass judgment-what i have heard of Black Moon, i like (and i saw them on that tour)

one of the only groups whose "dark side" i have ended up embracing is Triumvirat, with their last two pop rock albums A La Carte and Russian Roulette, but both were initially a hard sell for me-it took decades before i liked them, but now i definitely do




Well, I dunno about those two abomonable Triumvirat piles of sh*t. Skeet shooting material as far as I'm concerned. I only bought Russian Roulette to if it was possible to get any worse. What is beyond belief is that both of them were releaed on CD.

As for Love Beach when it was released in Nov '78 we skipped school to wait for the record store to open. There's nothing wrong with it realy( well, maybe the cover and title ) But ELP were called into the president of Atlantic Records Ahmet Ertgun's office and given the "suggestion" to do something a bit more watered down which they did ( what's wrong with Canario ? ). You have to understand that they had taken pretty much everything over the top by '78. At least they continued to play the older material in concert and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think anything off Love Beach was played live. I still throw it on the turntable from time-to-time.  Rolling Stone Magazine said doing the dishes was a more creative act  than creating Love Beach.

EDIT : The Carl Palmer band Occasionally played Canario.
 
ELP never toured after Love Beach. It practically finished them until the public got fed up with talentless 'musicians' dominating the charts and ELP were wheeled out again in the 80's along with a host of other 'old bands'.
The 80's incarnation had Powell on drums so Love Beach was never on the agenda. When ELP (the real one) toured in the 90's they had a decent album to play and that only left room for the classics.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2012 at 02:41
Originally posted by kevin4peace

I don't have much to add here, but I agree- ELO's Time is a masterpiece. Absolutely spectacular, and far from a 'guilty' pleasure. I also really like Gentle Giant's last two albums. Not necessarily prog, but certainly great new wavey pop.

The more I read stuff like that, the more I want to hear it.

Oops ... just downloaded it. Kudos!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2012 at 08:32
Originally posted by Alitare

 ...
I actually like The Final Cut more than the Wall. Neither of these are my favorite Pink Floyd album, though. But hell, I like The Final Cut more than Animals (by a very small point!)
 
You do know that with the exception of two cuts, the whole of "The Final Cut" was originally a part of the longer and uncut version of The Wall ... right?
 
Take out "Not Now John" and one other cut, and see the rest of it fit in the story  of The Wall!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2012 at 08:40
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

Originally posted by Vobiscum

I like PFloyd in the beginning. Before the classics.

+1. The bootlegs are awesome. 'Sunshine' is one of my biggest favorites. 'Lucy Leave' and their rendition of 'I'm a King Bee' are few of the first things I learned to play on my electric guitar. 'Vegetable Man' is fun to learn Smile Wink .
 
The whole story of Pink Floyd is much more visible and clear in the bootlegs than it is in any compendium and writing or articles out there.
 
Too bad that people usually think that "day in life" is not a part of your history, hey?
 
They help you understand how Dark Side of the Moon came about from what they were doing in those early days with sound effects between pieces and in the pieces themselves. Continuining in that tradition, eventually came what became one of the best rock operas ever written .. the veritable Turandot of rock music, called The Wall!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote TODDLER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2012 at 09:45
I think (of course), that many of the "dark" discography titles cross into "Top 40" "Pop" music. "Power Pop" is how I would define it. I am open to songwriting and the craft of it. The titles from the "dark" discography also cross into a "Rock" songwriting style. With Blue Oyster Cult ..you have a wide variety of songwriting styles. You have songs like "After Dark" and "I Love the Night" which contain harmony vocals that are very planned out and rehearsed. The band has been connected with the "Metal" genre...yet they have an influence of the MC5 and harmony vocals that are sometimes reminiscent of structure within "Beach Boys" harmonies. Some of the Prog bands such as 80's Genesis and Yes played more straight up "Rock" combined with a "Power Pop" melody like B.O.C.  At first I was completely turned off by the Love Beaches and 90125'S , then later I realized it was to an extent..like listening to more "Rock" than "Prog". Abacab packed dance floors in the 80's. Because it had a driving 4/4 beat throughout. It had the mechanics of excercises in the center section so...that meant that an average rocker would stuggle covering the song. It contained about that much prog within it. Just enough to make the song difficult for the average professional musician to play.
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