do you like the "dark side" of the discography?

I would rather say that the easy way out for writing lirycs for a song, is to do a love song. I guess someone like Jon Anderson put his effort into his lirycs, and surely enough he took them very seriously... even though most of us just won't understand them. Well, there's that thing about puting words into the songs because he thought they sounded good with the music, even if they didn't make much sense, but if he did that seriously, I guess it's just as valid and artistic as anything else. In general, I just don't think that progs lirycs are particularly bad. They are, at least, just within the norm of pop-rock lirycs, not worse. Of course, not everyone can be Bob Dylan, but how many other pop-rock artists are there that write lirycs like him? There are some very good liryc writers in prog, and some others who aren't so much, just as in any other musical genere.

Moshkito ...you are my God!

RoyFairbanks makes some good points.  Prog can sometimes be somewhat oblivious, music for the sake of music.  That is fine and I don't think that is taking the easy way out but it does limit its appeal.  When I first heard SEBTP, I used to like it at least as much as Dark Side if not more but I can't say that anymore.  It doesn't have the purpose and simplicity of DSOTM.   Well, it doesn't have to, anything under the sun is valid in art, but I prefer the latter approach.  Sometimes progheads get so clued into complexity and technicality and all that jazz that they don't appreciate the potential of a more straight up but well written piece of music to make a lasting impact.  It's not like everything that is set in pop structure is just simple, kindergarten music and not 'worthwhile for prog fans'. 

With that said, the other extreme is to overrate music merely on account of the lyrics.   And I also don't like the idea of dismissing music only because you can't relate to the lyrics.  If a musician can write good music, that is the thing that matters most.  If he can also complement it with good lyrics, that's a bonus but it doesn't always happen.   

Good lyrics is, when tamijo don understan - bad lyric is when tamijo understan Thats what good about ´not be good with Englis.

Most definitely not, at least in terms of the examples you gave. When a great prog band descends into more commercial, accessible pop-rock a part of me dies. If you're also referring to earlier albums, like pre-KC Giles Giles and Fripp or Genesis' debut, I definitely enjoy those albums, both as a historical document of the evolution of a band and on its own merits. But post peak albums (specifically monstrosities such as say, Civilian by Gentle Giant or and Then There Were Three by Genesis) as a rule I really don't get anything out of other than distaste.

Originally posted by moshkito Originally posted by rogerthat RoyFairbanks makes some good points.  Prog can sometimes be somewhat oblivious, music for the sake of music.  That is fine and I don't think that is taking the easy way out but it does limit its appeal.  ...   I think this is the case with any music. I don't think there is anything out there where the composer/composers (as is the case in a band) have not struggled with the continuity of a piece, and its inevitable direction.   To me, if it is "sometimes oblivious, and music for the sake of music" ... is not as important, mostly because there are a lot of schools out there, and musically educated people, that write and believe in the abstract nature of music and composition ... and modern music has been more about this, than the more obvious melodic stuff that has been the history of music that we all know for at least 500 years.   The "easy way out" for me, is when it returns to the main opening theme, this making it A-B-A ... and yeat another repetition of the original format that is the most liked in all of music, because it is the easiest and the best known and studied form out there. It's hard to study "form" in a Stravinsky, because there is going to be a different form every 3 minutes ... and it is NOT difficult at all to break down "form" in almost ALL of the progressive fathers, with the exception of KC's first album.   "Visual music", which to me KC's first album is, does NOT limit its "appeal". If it does so, it will do so for the folks that are afraid to match the wording to the music, and realize that they are both saying the same thing, at the same time, as if solo'ing together ... which is something that only Amon Duul 2 and Guru Guru have done succeefully on their early albums ... non-stop. Again, this is where the 3rd dimention and understanding of this album comes from ... a veritable and literal interpretation of the words themselves with an instrument, which is an exercise that is used in Advanced Acting theory in theater and film, and was defined in words by Gurdgieff many years ago.   But I wonder if we're simply trying to explain something that we do not have words for ... and if we don't we just need to admit it, not use an expression like .,.. this is not this or that ... because, then all one is doing is mis-directing the possibilities of understanding the piece by confusing the issue and ideas.   The other problem, is us thinking that the words, sometimes, illustrate the music and vice-versa ... and that is a dangerous falacy to fall into ... because it will make you "supposedly" think this and that when you hear something and not something else that you actually feel. At that point the music will fail you and eventually die off. It's the same thing as the typical BS that says that "Major" keys are happy, and "Minor" keys are sad ... which is, by far, the worst description of music ever divised, by folks that really have no feel for music itself ... just their ideas.   This is the part that is "different" in the early stuff ... some of the wording in these things, was not exactly "lyrics" ... I have a hard time when someone says "lyrics" and Greg Lake is screaming in your ears ... don't tell me lies ... and it is accentuated by the drums on top of it ... and all we can say is ... "lyrics" ... and this ain't so. But yeah, Stairway to Heaven ... them is "lyrics", not "truth" words!

You certainly are.

Originally posted by moshkito   The "easy way out" for me, is when it returns to the main opening theme, this making it A-B-A ... and yeat another repetition of the original format that is the most liked in all of music, because it is the easiest and the best known and studied form out there.

Does it not therefore also make it more difficult to stand out in that format, following this train of thought?  I don't know what I should say w.r.t your references to Stravinsky, KC or Amon Duul II because I love their work.  But not every artsy musician is going to execute his ambitious concepts as well as Stravinsky or Fripp either.  Sometimes, I feel that the mere fact that somebody has decided to take on a tough format and operate in a niche of art that is 'difficult' and has a more restricted following places him on a pedestal in the eyes of followers of that niche.  That is something I do not agree with. 

There are really not many prog rock BANDS or ARTISTS, only prog TRACKS.   Day in the Life is also prog and so is Contusion;  and artists like Beatles are very important because they expanded perceptions of what music could be like for large swathes of music listeners, not just a small niche.  And in doing so, they risked losing the commercial success that had accrued to them by writing She Loves You or Hard Day's Night while never possessing the snob value of 'serious' music.   

Expanding the scope of the 'easiest and best known form' is an important pursuit that has regrettably been abandoned in recent years because anybody who wants to make some serious music seems to want to do something 'technical' or 'experimental' or 'progressive'. 

^^^ Especially given the "weird is good" assumption I have seen floating around in recent years.  I think weird or plain, it can all be very good or very bad and it depends heavily on how purposefully the music has been conceived and how well it is then executed.   I guess we do appreciate the contribution of Hendrix here because his music is part of the PA database and that is basically what Hendrix did.  He did unthinkable things to the blues and influenced legions of guitarists.   What music needs today far more than the next Amon Duul II or Tangerine Dream is the next Hendrix or the next Beatles.  There seems to be a dire lack of something cutting edge in popular music now and that will not inspire more people to pick up an instrument.   

It's interesting, that reference you made to Mew.  I guess I should check it out.  Have heard some good things about them.