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Election 2012 (USA)

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Poll Question: Who You Gonna Vote For?
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4 [28.57%]
2 [14.29%]
6 [42.86%]
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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2012 at 20:07
What I mean is, unless I'm wrong, you seem to very opposed to less government and supportive of more.
That more... is the means.

You also seem to be in the Social Democracy mold (Sanders, Kucinich) aka Sweden. (that's why I said that)
It will not happen here. Even if somehow those guys got their way, we're in such a bad situation. A large, efficient, open and corrupt free government will not happen here, we're too corrupt and set in our mindset.
I love their system, but besides the fact it's become unsustainable it simply will not happen here. So if that's what you'd like (as I did) you need to simply face reality.

If you are sincere in wanting better government and don't care the size, then we need less. I've been reading and researching for months now, so there's just so much info...but long story short, less is the best government to have.


Thank you for telling me unemployment is bad, I was unaware...
They will find new jobs. We all do (while supporting theirs) so they will find jobs.


Edited by JJLehto - May 04 2012 at 20:09
"It's fine, luckily we're all English so no one will ask any questions. Thank you centuries of emotional repression."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2012 at 20:15
Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:


As much as you want to pretend there isn't there is.  One advocates policies that would turn back the clock to where even contraceptives would be outlawed.  Believe you're thinking of Santorum but I wouldn't put it past the Mittster to say that in a room full of religious-righters.  Yeah, I'm pretty sure he hasn't meant what he's been saying.

One advocates for economic policies that aren't about enriching the already wealthy at the expense of those of us who are struggling to make a living...
Seriously?  What do you call a bailout?  Obama has done nothing but hand tax dollars to his buddies.  What do I call a bailout?  Depends on the bailees.  The one's who actually resulted in companies that produce things not going under and that means jobs.

What really amuses me that is that the party that has set out to make Obama's presidency a failure from day one automatically takes knee jerk opposition to any thing this administration does even when it's things they previously supported.  Yes, the republicans really did him in back when Obama had a supermajority in congress.  You'll have to blame your fellow dems for anything that didn't get done in the frist 2 years.  The automatic opposition is built into the deception, by the way.  Follow actions, not words.  Obama and the Democrats totally squandered the beginning of his term by being too timid and opened themselves up losing the House by doing so.

I hear a lot of people practicing willful ignorance and historical amnesia.  Seems like this describes damn near every political post you've ever made here.  No, that actually describes damn near every political post you've made here.  If Romney wins it will be because we truly are the United States of Amnesia.  He won't and even if does nothing will change, you'll just go back to bitching about policies you hated from Bush and accepted from Obama.  Not true, it does make a difference, there is a lot of overlap between the parties, and I have every confidence that Republicans in their current form will make things even worse for the average person if they get any more power.


Edited by Slartibartfast - May 04 2012 at 20:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2012 at 20:22
Rah rah Democrats
Rah rah Republicans


A line from my album, Refulgence:

"Our Constitution has grown weak like a field of dying grass.  The eagle's trampled underfoot by elephant and ass."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2012 at 20:23
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

What I mean is, unless I'm wrong, you seem to very opposed to less government and supportive of more.
That more... is the means.

You also seem to be in the Social Democracy mold (Sanders, Kucinich) aka Sweden. (that's why I said that)
It will not happen here. Even if somehow those guys got their way, we're in such a bad situation. A large, efficient, open and corrupt free government will not happen here, we're too corrupt and set in our mindset.
I love their system, but besides the fact it's become unsustainable it simply will not happen here. So if that's what you'd like (as I did) you need to simply face reality.

If you are sincere in wanting better government and don't care the size, then we need less. I've been reading and researching for months now, so there's just so much info...but long story short, less is the best government to have.


Thank you for telling me unemployment is bad, I was unaware...
They will find new jobs. We all do (while supporting theirs) so they will find jobs.

This whole more or less government is vague.  What is more?  What is less?  You want less protection from polluters?  Less inspections of food?  Less firefighters, police?  Less protection from predatory companies?

But yes, call me social democrat, liberal, progressive.  The reality is that just because you can't have a perfect government doesn't mean you shouldn't stand for things that will make it better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2012 at 20:32
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:


This whole more or less government is vague.  What is more?  What is less? 

You want less protection from polluters?  Government sucks at that.

Less inspections of food?  Government sucks at that.


Less firefighters, police?  Government sucks at that.


Less protection from predatory companies?  Government sucks at that.

But yes, call me social democrat, liberal, progressive.  The reality is that just because you can't have a perfect government doesn't mean you shouldn't stand for things that will make it better.




Edited by Epignosis - May 04 2012 at 20:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote manofmystery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2012 at 05:33
^ “Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all.” - Frédéric Bastiat
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoyFairbank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2012 at 11:36
Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

^ “Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all.” - Frédéric Bastiat


Not to get involved in anything, but to be serious for a moment....

That remark really misses the point of what socialism is....

Socialism is not about big government vs. small government.

Maybe people should call that Keynesian capitalist economics or national capitalism. Socialism doesn't really deal with the issue of intervention into the market. That is a mistaken impression due to labeling of Keynesian and national capitalists. Also of misconception of other economic system wrongly labeled socialist, but based on national centralization.

Socialism does not involve government intervention in its economic system or social system. It is based on supply and demand by consumer preference. Social spending is determined by consumer demand as well. Consumer allocation instead of producer allocation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Proletariat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2012 at 12:18
want a better future? want to implement euro-socialist practices? or perhaps you want expansion of the free market? do you want a gold standard?
 
whatever you want step one is breaking this over sized and unwieldy nation into 50 smaller reasonably sized chunks.
 
I support anti-federalism!
who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Proletariat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2012 at 12:22
Originally posted by RoyFairbank RoyFairbank wrote:

Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

^ “Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all.” - Frédéric Bastiat


Not to get involved in anything, but to be serious for a moment....

That remark really misses the point of what socialism is....

Socialism is not about big government vs. small government.

Maybe people should call that Keynesian capitalist economics or national capitalism. Socialism doesn't really deal with the issue of intervention into the market. That is a mistaken impression due to labeling of Keynesian and national capitalists. Also of misconception of other economic system wrongly labeled socialist, but based on national centralization.

Socialism does not involve government intervention in its economic system or social system. It is based on supply and demand by consumer preference. Social spending is determined by consumer demand as well. Consumer allocation instead of producer allocation.
There are many many forms of socialism... Marxism and Lenninism included, however personally I would prefer earlyer socialistic ideas. people like Saint-Simon and Owen had some decent enough theories that are far removed from communism often these older socialist theories bear striking resemblence to certain forms of anarchism and libertarianism.
who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2012 at 12:35
I'm not voting Democrat OR Republican OR Independent - I consider myself a political moderate and I vote based on who I agree with most.  I think the party system hurts more than it helps - it distracts too much from the issues.  I think they should hand out surveys with questions, and based on the answers your vote goes to the person who represents your views best.  LOL  I'm not completely serious about that, of course...but it's amazing how little people know about the people they vote for...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2012 at 13:53
Originally posted by RoyFairbank RoyFairbank wrote:


Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

^ <span =message=""><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-: EN; mso-fareast-: EN-US; mso-bidi-: AR-SA" lang="EN">“Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all.” - Frédéric Bastiat</span></span>
Not to get involved in anything, but to be serious for a moment....That remark really misses the point of what socialism is....Socialism is not about big government vs. small government. Maybe people should call that Keynesian capitalist economics or national capitalism. Socialism doesn't really deal with the issue of intervention into the market. That is a mistaken impression due to labeling of Keynesian and national capitalists. Also of misconception of other economic system wrongly labeled socialist, but based on national centralization.Socialism does not involve government intervention in its economic system or social system. It is based on supply and demand by consumer preference. Social spending is determined by consumer demand as well. Consumer allocation instead of producer allocation.
So you have explained what socialism apparently is not, but you have failed to explain what it actually is. Elaboration please?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Icarium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2012 at 13:58
i will refuse to vote Clown
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2012 at 14:12
Tomorrow I vote for the second round of elections in France. I hope the "so-called" socialist will not win...
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Icarium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2012 at 14:39
Originally posted by lucas lucas wrote:

Tomorrow I vote for the second round of elections in France. I hope the "so-called" socialist will not win...
good luck on the election (also how fares Eva Joly, im curious since she is from where i am from, also she is a green alternative )
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoyFairbank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2012 at 15:13
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

So you have explained what socialism apparently is not, but you have failed to explain what it actually is. Elaboration please?


I think I explained it pretty well... it is about direct consumer preference... to use a political term, allocation is decided using democratic methods.

It cannot work or even exist in a centralized or a market based economy. That's the whole point. That is why Marx talked of the withering away of the state. It's functions are irrelevant. Talk of socialism in either of the two aforementioned cases is misguided, but understandable. Many self-described socialists were advocates of different types of Keynesian intervention in the context of a market economy. If one pays close attention the different socialists will acknowledge themselves as non-socialists and advocates of a opposing type of economics through various key phrases and concepts, such as Social Democrat, which means reform of capitalism, non-orthodox, revisionist, socialism in one country, market socialist.... This terminology is decisive but it is difficult for the uninitiated to differentiate. 

Once again, they are working from a different concept. Moreover, they usually don't directly pursue this concept, instead they are supporters of a certain faction or trend in capitalist politics and economics, or supporters of third world national consolidation (earlier times). They use the term socialist to indicate that there are trends in capitalism or national centralization that are viable. The historical reason is that these groups arose out of the decline of the workers movement in different decades, and considered themselves heirs, adjusting themselves to new conditions.

This creates confusion, which is exploited to create the myth that socialism is simply Keynesian intervention, or even the political support of it. According to Marx, socialism can only be realized by concerted establishment on a world scale, an economic revolution that is established and then realized. There is no such thing as a Socialist policy, or a socialist institution. Socialism is an economic stage which is entirely distinct and closed. It is the lower stage of communism, which is based on a highly evolved and automatic economy with few limits in productivity or operation. Both are future economies, but communism is a state of the very distant future.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2012 at 17:25
Futuristic as in impossible. Rather convoluted wordy explanation but I guess that will have to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoyFairbank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2012 at 21:31
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Futuristic as in impossible. Rather convoluted wordy explanation but I guess that will have to do.


From the perspective of the times Marx was writing in, the future is already here. Production has been socialized, globalized. We are essentially moving into socialism but being yanked back by the capitalist mode of appropriation and allocation. Trotsky talked of times that were past ripe for socialism, but had become rotten. The tend to retract as nationalist and private accumulation is out of sync with socialized, globalized production. Hence the great depression, then the decades of expansion again toward American efficiency of production throughout the world (US becomes savoir of capitalism), then the outer reaches of this expansion, loss of hegemony by United States (first collapse of Bretton Woods) the rottenness again, finally, the cord loses slack and tightens suddenly and yanks back the out of sync demands of allocation by private and national accumulators.

Rather than impossible, it is too possible, so capitalism is destroying its own pregnant development (the billions wiped in GDP being the indication on one hand, national divisions expressing quite a bit more). It does this periodically, but there is a reason why it does it on this scale and namely in this particular fashion in 1929 and in 2008. This is capitalism eating itself, not just having a snack. The conditions for socialism are overripe, they are being destroyed, and capitalism maybe can reduce itself to a position where it can expand again, for a while. But history does not repeat itself. It has little basis for expansion today.


Edited by KarlMarx - Today at 21:38


Edited by RoyFairbank - May 05 2012 at 21:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2012 at 12:29
Originally posted by aginor aginor wrote:

Originally posted by lucas lucas wrote:

Tomorrow I vote for the second round of elections in France. I hope the "so-called" socialist will not win...
good luck on the election (also how fares Eva Joly, im curious since she is from where i am from, also she is a green alternative )
She got 2 % of votes at the first round of elections. She is on the 7th place (out of ten).


Edited by lucas - May 06 2012 at 12:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoyFairbank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2012 at 20:12
I hope Ron Paul runs independent.... I don't think he will, but its going to be really boring to watch Obama landslide Romney. I'd rather have some issues raised by the media refusing to allow Paul to participate.


I think its unhealthy for people to be in thrall of the Red Blue religion. Any momentary relief is welcomed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zappaholic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2012 at 21:26
Originally posted by RoyFairbank RoyFairbank wrote:

its going to be really boring to watch Obama landslide Romney.


The aftermath will be anything but boring.  I am convinced that no matter who wins, by November 7th DC will be burning.


WORSHIP SMARF!
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