Calling all old hippies

• Social change has imo been hard-fought by the masses, though undoubtedly inspired by the enlightened visionaries. Strikes, marches and sit-ins have resulted in governments, certainly in the UK and no doubt elsewhere too, conceding increasing degrees of power to the masses. That's how the universal vote was won in Britain, and how shipyards on the Clyde were reprieved from closure, to name two examples. Even when strikes and similar protest action had no immediate positive effect (e.g. Jarrow) they helped shift the mindset amongst the ruling elite which resulted in reform further along the line. Obviously, in countiries like Britain and the US most of these concessions were bequeathed by, rather than wrested from, the ruling elite because these countries are relatively democratic; that's not to say that there wouldn't have been bloody revolution if the need had arisen. I'm sure you would probably put forward a convincing argument why the masses didn't help bring about the closure of America's military engagemment in Vietnam, but i guess that many of those who protested would disagree.
• The system patently doesn't self-regulate effectively; that's why people march and protest.
• Of course there has been massive deforestation over the last millennium, no doubt about it. During most of that time, however, the world's population was much smaller, and there was far less man-made pollution to add to the equation. I'm sure you're not suggesting that the climate experts who warn against global warming have somehow overlooked these factors (or perhaps they are covertly employed by vested interests who wish to purvey some myth about climate change to profiteer from it?.....)

As i say, your a great debater, but you have basically put a wall up against almost every point i've argued and therefore i doubt we're ever going to agree on much. We're on opposite sides of a divide. I guess you could argue that there's not much hope for improving the world given the diversity of opinion that this thread exemplifies, but i live in hope. Thanks very much though, for all the time and trouble you've taken to debate this, and the interest you've taken, i genuinely appreciate it. I hope to have similar in-depth discussions on my own forum in time, but given that i only posted on this forum in the hope of getting a few people genuinely interested in participating in my own website i think that at this point i must say that my energies are best spent elsewhere. I would happily continue such a debate on the Globalfightback forum, but this isn't the place for me. I'm a great fan of prog music, amongst other genres, but don't get much time to debate music anymore; however, i'll probably drop by from time to time on other threads and will look forward to talking music with you.