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Prog's Most Controversial Lyricist
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    Posted: June 18 2012 at 06:22
I can see Jon Anderson and James Labrie (maybe Cedric Zavala) turning up a lot here, but my pick has to be Neil Peart.
 
I can't think of anyone (except maybe Bernie Taupin) as likely to turn up on a list of Best Lyricists AND a list of Worst Lyricists.
 
You'll find a lot of people going "Peart is an exceptional lyricist, using songs to express sophisticated philosophical concepts, commenting on a wide variety of aspects of the human condition, able to ground his lyrics in allegorical high fantasy or reality, or to even strip them of all concept and present them as logic."
 
And people going "Peart is a terrible bore, using songs to badly paraphrase various books he has read, clumsy turns of phrase wading in bathos as he reaches for great profundity but instead is either just talking common sense or being incredibly condescending. He spends so much time being self-consciously intelligent, he forgets to make things listenable."
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Steven Wilson.
Persuasion deflowers your sympathy.
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Greg Lake
Coldness doth get away with the badness.
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Horizons: Really? I don't think I've ever seen people argue over his lyrics, not passionately at least.
 
SD: Good pick except I think there is a bit of a consensus that he's a bit naff. "How could he lose six million jews etc" must just be about the most derided prog lyric ever.


Edited by Textbook - June 18 2012 at 06:31
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I generally like Pearts lyrics, although I can see why some people find them pompous, or too clever for their own good. I once posted the lyrics to 'The Spirit of Radio' on another music forum, and the reaction was a mix of hilarity, and 'Don't those guys ever have fun?'

I'm not a big fan of early Marillion lyrics, to be honest. The sentiments expressed are fine, but every now and then Fish uses a ridiculous line: "The season of the button" for example, or just generally seems to be trying to hard to sound poetic, when relative simplicity could have brought more to the music. Of course, it's all subjective.

Between 1976 - 1980, Genesis lyrics were, by and large no picnic either, imo, but then it depends what you want from lyrics.
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Posts: 32917 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2012 at 06:38
Originally posted by Textbook

Horizons: Really? I don't think I've ever seen people argue over his lyrics, not passionately at least.
 
SD: Good pick except I think there is a bit of a consensus that he's a bit naff. "How could he lose six million jews etc" must just be about the most derided prog lyric ever.

I rather like most of Lake's lyrics. But I've seen a lot of hate so I get your point. I'll try again.
Coldness doth get away with the badness.
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Posts: 3303 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Textbook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2012 at 06:41
Blacksword: Peart's lyrics do look terrible written down, but I don't count that because he's not a poet, he's a lyricist. He's allowed to hide behind Lee's vocal delivery in the context of them being *songs*. Some things sound fine when sung but silly when read and vice versa. There are lyricists who manage lyrics so good you can read them but anyone who thinks that's a minimum standard is being unreasonable.
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can i mention:




I've also never been a fan at all (lyrically) of the nonsense that comes out of jon anderson, but at least it sounds pretty (most of the time).
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Posts: 4698 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2012 at 07:00
Jon Anderson.  Agree with Peart as well.  Waters is pretty polarizing too.
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Doesn't everyone worship Waters as a lyricist?

Edited by Textbook - June 18 2012 at 07:02
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Posts: 4698 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2012 at 07:05
Not really, because he is a master of concept rather than firm.  He can tend to express himself quite plainly (which I like).
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Posts: 3303 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Textbook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2012 at 07:07
I thought the controversy with Waters was over him alledgedly being a dickhead, not the quality of his lyrics.
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Posts: 14074 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jim Garten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2012 at 07:14
Originally posted by Textbook

Horizons: Really? I don't think I've ever seen people argue over his [Steven Wilson] lyrics


Originally posted by Steven Wilson (Dislocated Day)

Stood beside an inlet
A starfish leads a dance
It dreams it is a human
And falls into a trance




Well, I guess we were all young once.


Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Posts: 3303 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Textbook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2012 at 07:16
That is really terrible.
 
Still, doesn't change the fact that people don't seem to argue about his lyrics, though perhaps they should.
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Posts: 2005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Hercules Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2012 at 07:20
I generally rather like Peart's lyrics, but don't particularly agree with his occasional right wing, libertarian messages.
 
Jon Anderson and Peter Nicholls both write amazing lyrics to fit the context of the song, but they are usually absolute nonsense out of it.
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Originally posted by Textbook

And people going "Peart is a terrible bore, using songs to badly paraphrase various books he has read, clumsy turns of phrase wading in bathos as he reaches for great profundity but instead is either just talking common sense or being incredibly condescending. He spends so much time being self-consciously intelligent, he forgets to make things listenable."

Those are some good points, but I think the problem isn't so much that he's being "self-consciously intelligent", but rather that his lyrics try to be intelligent but really aren't. The best explanation I've seen of what's wrong with Peart's lyrics is by John McFerrin:

Originally posted by John McFerrin

A lot of rock lyricists choose to write about "shallow" things in a dumb way; a lot of great lyricists write about "shallow" things in an intelligent way; a select few have the ability to write about "deep" things in an intelligent way. Simply put, Neil Peart routinely committed the cardinal sin of writing about "deep" things in some of the dumbest ways imaginable. [...] a lot of his lyrics read as Western Philosophy and the Human Condition for Dummies [...] Too often, even in a lot of songs where I like his lyrics, I feel like I'm listening to the poetry of a high school Freshman who just bought The Dictionary of Cultural Literacy and a thesaurus [...]
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Posts: 10641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2012 at 07:50
Originally posted by Textbook




Horizons: Really? I don't think I've ever seen people argue over his lyrics, not passionately at least.
 
SD: Good pick except I think there is a bit of a consensus that he's a bit naff. "How could he lose six million jews etc" must just be about the most derided prog lyric ever.


Yeah, that line in 'The only way' (is that what it's called?) is awful. I could feel my toes curl the first time I heard it. Lakes vocal is really bad on that song too, which doesn't help.
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Posts: 10641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2012 at 07:54
Originally posted by Textbook



Blacksword: Peart's lyrics do look terrible written down, but I don't count that because he's not a poet, he's a lyricist. He's allowed to hide behind Lee's vocal delivery in the context of them being *songs*. Some things sound fine when sung but silly when read and vice versa. There are lyricists who manage lyrics so good you can read them but anyone who thinks that's a minimum standard is being unreasonable.


Yes, I know what you mean, but I always thought the lyrics to Spirit of Radio were good, both sung and read. The section about 'glittering prizes and endless compromises' passes as both lyrics, and arguably poetry..of a sort..
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Posts: 95 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kevin4peace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2012 at 09:22
I can't believe no one has mentioned Sinfield yet. Some of the early Crimson lyrics are ridiculous:

Go Polonius or kneel
The reapers name their harvest dawn
All your tarnished devil's spoons
Will rust beneath our corn.

There are some classic songs and King Crimson is one of my favourite bands, but theres no denying that Sinfield could go a bit over board sometimes.
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Posts: 1155 		Post Options Post Options   Quote HarbouringTheSoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2012 at 09:50
Originally posted by kevin4peace

There are some classic songs and King Crimson is one of my favourite bands, but theres no denying that Sinfield could go a bit over board sometimes.

Haha yes, "stake a lizard by the throat" and such. LOL
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