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Steven Wilson Vs. Roine Stolt

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mirror Image Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Steven Wilson Vs. Roine Stolt
    Posted: August 01 2012 at 23:39
I found this thread via IGN of all places and found it interesting:

 Roine Stolt replies to Steven Wilson
08. Dec 2005 at 13:50 
Here's an excerpt from an interview with SW about
prog music, and a reply from one of the people he
talks about:

"Jeff Nau (Explicitly Intense magazine): As far as progressive rock goes and
had gone,what do you feel about what's happening now? Dream Theater
is still doing very well, and now there's a new kind of
prog rising up with bands like the Mars Volta and even Radiohead -
but also with older-sounding groups like the Flower Kings and
Transatlantic. What do you think needs to happen for it to
survive?

Steve Wilson (Porcupine Tree): Okay, I think that answer is very
simple: bands like the Mars Volta, Tool, and Radiohead - these bands
are the future of progressive music.

Bands like the Flower Kings and Transatlantic? The DEATH of
progressive music. These are the bands that reinforce every prejudice
people have about progressive rock: old-fashioned, pompous,
pretentious, hung-up on sci-fi concepts - that for me is rubbish. But
there's a new wave of bands that for me are being influenced just as
much by hip-hop as they are King Crimson or Godspeed You Black
Emperor and bands like us as well, I hope.

For me, Transatlantic and the Flower Kings - and I have heard these
bands, unfortunately - they're following the blueprint from 1972 so
closely; it's completely pointless and redundant. They're never going
to better the originals, anyway - why bother? Whatever's going around
should be part of their musical vocabulary.

I don't particularly dig generic music, whether it's hardcore metal
or hip-hop, even down to the prog bands you mentioned. They're
following a formula way too closely. For me,being progressive is
about taking the word at face value: it a band is going to try to be
progressive, they shouldn't be looking at the past - they should be
looking at everything that's going on around them now,
from hip-hop to trip-hop to death metal to trance. The
word 'progressive' is about the FUTURE." 


Roine Stolt fired backed with this linguistically dubious e-mail:

From: Roine Stolt
Subject: Steve Wilson on The Flower Kings
Date: December 8, 2005 7:34:19 AM EST


Rob ,and all...
It's correct ,it IS a personal preference and 
it IS OK to have an opinion .
It's just that it comes across as a bit aggressive 
and who knows ...silly,as neither Flowerkings or
Transatlantic have ever been dealing with 
"sci-fi lyrics" ,at least to my knowledge .
But I fear it is more than an opinion ,
it is a bit of an aggressive statement,
meant to hurt or diminish.

What he present is his opinion that we 
are the "death of progressive rock", it is 
not that nice a statement really.
I suppose he's trying to say that bands 
like us scare the younger audience or the 
hip crowd and press away ,that he now
appearently is eager to please,it is in his 
"marketing plan" . We all fight for recognition,
but a bit of positivism is sometimes better that 
hanging out what should/could be your friends.
In that sense Mike Portnoy is a lovely guy, he is 
always VERY supportive of groups ,know or 
unknown,I think I've never heard him say 
a bad word about anyone ,any band ,even 
folks he could have reason to dislike.

It's that Steven does not seem to care 
if he piss me off ,or Portnoy or Trewavas off ,
or whoever have helped him in the past ,
I think he believes it just add to his credibility
...or coolness??!!!
So he don't like Symphonic/prog , fine , but 
my question would be, is he now into the more
metal things because he loves it or because it 
simply have a bigger audience .'
My guess is that Steven's career means a lot 
to him and he do whatever it takes to make 
PT a bigger act ,he wanna be in with the cool 
in-crowd ,the dark tattooed guys.
In that sense I can see that any "flowery" 
old school hippie band like TFK looks like a 
bad future and something he wanna steer 
away from rapidly ,not to be connected.

Now,there are many prog bands out there 
(name XXXX) that create a stir within progcircles 
that I personally feel is exactly what Steven is 
referring TFK to be , they are scarecrows, 
they scare people away because they are not 
close to as inventive ,poetic,expressive or 
original as Yes,ELP, Floyd or Crimson or 
simply DULL. Many a hype is written in advertisments 
or articles in the prog-press or mailinglists all over 
about those bands but I still find them VERY poor 
and sometimes unlistenable. BUT I would never go 
as far as hang them out in an interview (at least 
I hope I haven't ) .

For me it's quite simple ,if a band like Transatlantic 
sell 65'000 copies of a CD (on an independent label) 
it simply means that the band IS popular,VERY 
popular and that MANY people do NOT consider 
them to be the DEATH of prog ,rather the "new life" 
or "afterlife" or whatever, but many people did rejoice. 
it WAS a phenomenon. If Steven Wilson feel the 
opposite ......we can't do much about that,but he's wrong.

Flowerkings is a band that started around the same 
time as PT and he knows very well of us and know 
we're both popular and considered along with Spocks,
PT to be the new wave of prog .
So after all there may be some truth to that 
he try to kill his competition .

I may be wrong but I seem to remember that 
Steven Wilson's name came up as a possible 
candidate to mix the second Transatlantic album ,but at 
the time someone of us had heard that he didn't 
like us at all , so it's not the first time he make 
similar statements , this is his firm belief,not 
something thoughtless he happen to say ...... .

Roine Stolt 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mirror Image Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2012 at 23:39
Now, those that read this, what do you think about it? Who's right? Who's wrong?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Horizons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2012 at 23:47
Steven is better and right. :D

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mirror Image Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2012 at 00:01
Originally posted by Horizons

Steven is better and right. :D

Well, I think Wilson has a lot of good points, but I don't think he's right in the way he went about talking about TFK or Transatlantic. I think he was pretty downright rude about it. I think Wilson is really deeply in awe of Stolt who is just a towering presence in progressive music. Stolt is a musician's musician. Of course, Wilson's music is different and appeals to different people. I personally don't care much about his music. I have three Porcupine Tree albums that do nothing but collect dust. The problem I have with Wilson is that he thinks his music is 'progressive.' The reality is that progressive rock is a style of rock music now that he has even acknowledged in various interviews. It's not a new thing. It's something that has been around since The Beatles were cutting Sgt. Pepper's. The interesting thing is that The Beatles are more relevant today than Wilson and Stolt put together. Smile Anyway, to me, it's not a question of who's "better" because quite honestly you can't really compare apple and oranges, but it just comes down to personal preference as with anything. Wilson likes The Mars Volta? Great, I don't. Wilson likes Tool? Great, I'm not a fan of metal. Wilson likes Radiohead? Great, I don't. I mean he call these guys the future of music all he wants to, it's simply one man's opinion. Thankfully, there's enough good music to go around for people of all tastes. I am one that happens to lean towards Stolt's style. I like instrumental virtuosity and long improvised solo sections. But, again, this is what I like.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2012 at 00:43

I remember reading his interview in some rock magazine just after Stupid Dream came out and he had very similar views back then (1999). Wilson came across as very arrogant and was putting himself above many bands and clearly didn't mind rubbishing neo prog bands. This bothered me a little as at the time I loved IQ (and still do) and was into the growing 'retro prog' scene which included another of my beloved bands Par Lindh Project. So who does this upstart think he is then? I bought the album (Stupid Dream) to find out and was quite stunned about how bloody ordinary it was. Progressive rock not more like dull plodding rock with self obsessed lyrics that didn't even make sense. File under waste of time.

At around the same time I was getting into The Flower Kings having seen them live. They were much more like it. A symphonic prog band with lots of twists and turns in their music and lovely album covers. Colourfull technically well played music.
 
Skip forward five years and I was getting fed up with The Flower Kings and had just started to listen to Stupid Dream again(something that came about by accident and I won't bore anyone with the story). Deadwing convinced me that I was actually mssing out on something special. Then I got the newly remastered version of Stupid Dream which knocked me sideways.
 
Nowadays PT are one of my favourite bands while The Flower Kings don't figure anywhere. Roine Stolt has milked the retro prog scene for all its worth and fair enough he's done well. However I am now very much on the same page as Steven Wilson as regards the idead of what is 'progressive'. There is nothing progressive about The Flower Kings (or for that matter Anglagard who I like a lot). Stolt knows his genre and exploits it very well. Wilson also knows the genre very well but has cleverly carved out his own niche.


Edited by richardh - August 02 2012 at 00:46
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Gard3n Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2012 at 00:45
In the end, it's just a showcase of opinions, nothing more. They can do the music they want, and everyone will choose what to listen to. I consider myself a fan of SW, but I think he's been a jerk here. Also I tend more to Steven musical taste.

Another thing that must be said here is that the "new classic style" prog bands don't have a chance against the classics. Sorry, but what they do has been done ten thousand times better in the past.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote darkshade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2012 at 01:03
Originally posted by Horizons

Steven is better and right. :D


Definition of:

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Horizons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2012 at 01:17
It was a short post so it seems that way! Cry

I ensure everyone that i did read everything k - didn't feel like making an unimportant, pointless post as long as the argument. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote frippism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2012 at 01:17
Roine was definitely being the nicer more sensible guy, though SW was voicing many opinions which I tend to agree with. I feel that Roine came out the better man in this discussion, also considering I won't count PT as something to "progressive" or anything like that.
There be dragons
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Post Options Post Options   Quote darkshade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2012 at 01:18
The problem is, Porcupine Tree is (was) no more progressive than The Flower Kings were (are), so all of SWilson's comments are null and void, 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Horizons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2012 at 01:21
He's not looking to be labeled as prog or progressive. He's has voiced this before. He just dislikes that bands, specifically TFK here, seems to replicate or praise that "Classic Age" too much so it comes through their music too much. Something i agree with. 

Whatever though. Opinions are like a****les - everyone has one and they all stink. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote darkshade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2012 at 01:24
If you have the time and energy to want to rant about bands you don't care for, you must be craving attention, or have no life.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Horizons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2012 at 01:29
Are you referring to me? Or to anyone that does that? I hope you don't think i'm ranting. Geek

I just don't want to look like i have annoyingly blind faith. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote darkshade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2012 at 01:30
No I was talking about Steven Wilson. I like you Austin.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Horizons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2012 at 01:33
Originally posted by darkshade

No I was talking about Steven Wilson. I like you Austin.

Hug

Thanks Mike. 

:')! I think you're a neat guy too. Embarrassed

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Post Options Post Options   Quote napoca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2012 at 01:34

I don't think it is relevant what SW has to say about progressive music (actually I am not sure he is using progressive rock term), as long as he declare that only bands like his or the others he mentioned (Mars Volta, Radiohead and Tool) are moving in the "right" direction. What direction is right in "progressive music"? The one that brings more audience and get radio airplay by incorporating elements of more commercial genres? Probably SW forgot about his “The Sky Moves Sideways Phase One” as being “old fashioned, pretentious, completely pointless and redundant” or maybe he is ashamed now by his source of inspiration. For me that track is one of the best PT songs although I enjoy others from later albums where he steered away from that style.

Unfortunately, the ability to record a 70 min album that CD era is offering brought a lot of over pretentious, pompous and ultimately too long albums, which both FK and Transatlantic failed to avoid - and in this regard SW is right. But if I had to choose between a “modern” sound album of progressive music which try to please the sheep and an old fashioned progressive rock influenced one, I would go with the second one. A matter of tastes.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote napoca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2012 at 01:37
Sorry for the font size, it was a copy paste from Word and didn't pay atention to it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Gard3n Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2012 at 02:46
This will end in another pointless and lengthy discussion of what is and what isn't progressive.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ScorchedFirth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2012 at 04:31
Steven Wilson was kinda right. A good point, really badly (bit nastily even) made.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2012 at 05:29
I found Steven Wilson's last album (the solo one) to be quite boring, and while I have always had a special place in my heart for Porcupine Tree, I like Wilson less after reading this - that was quite pompous and pretentious, especially considering how grey, lifeless and washed out his solo album and Storm Corrosion were, and even more so when compared to the bright and colorful album that is the Flower Kings' latest album.  Steven Wilson is a (animal whose other name is a synonym of donkey).  In my personal opinion.
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