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Queen vs Black Sabbath

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Poll Question: who is your favourite bands
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Kati View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Kati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Queen vs Black Sabbath
    Posted: January 19 2013 at 19:35
Hug
Originally posted by Argonaught

Since the question is about the favorite band, not "which band did more for their genre at its early stages", it's kind of easy to decide in this one: Queen. 

I don't know Black Sabbath well enough to competently review their career path, but my impression is that they are kind of like the Rolling Stones of heavy metal: stayed around for decades without ever drifting away from the '60's blues-based rock. Heavy metal doesn't do anything for me, unless it's explicitly symphy and free from inappropriate growling and musical instrument abuse.      

Ozzie sure has a distinctive voice, along with an interesting personality, but frankly he can't be described as a uniquely talented vocalist. Freddy was one of a kind. 

Queen also - in their productive period - showed some jaw-dropping musicianship, exquisite taste and quite a gusto for innovation. I don't believe that Black Sabbath ever were interested in any of these.


I absolutely have to agree with you, Argonaught SmileHandshake

There are only a few vocalists that I like and Freddie's vocals were instrumental, among others, the vocalists I like are David Byron plus Daniel Gildenlow Approve
hig  

 

 




 



 

 

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Horizons View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Horizons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2013 at 20:37
I don't care for either really. 
I guess i never really "got" them.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Kati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2013 at 21:28
Originally posted by Horizons

I don't care for either really. 
I guess i never really "got" them.
 
I insist on converting you into liking Queen, Horizons Wink mhwoaahhxxx HugTongue
I usually am not phased by vocals but Freddie's were incredible, this is a cutchy cutchy soggy sniffy awww fave one of mine Big smile
.... I am just the pieces of the man I used to be...... too many bitter tears are raining down on me.... I am far away from home and facing this for too long.... awwwwww Heart
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Kati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2013 at 21:37
INCREDIBLE VOCALS Approve
Not a fav track of mine tho' Disapprove at least it's better than I WANT TO RIDE MY BICYCLE Confused

Edited by Kati - January 19 2013 at 21:38
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2013 at 22:27
Originally posted by Kati

Originally posted by Sumdeus

Originally posted by Kati

What does proto-prog stand for? Yes I am a nincompoop I know, sorry


Well proto is a prefix that means first, when people write proto-something it usually means the first of it's kind or with things like proto-prog or proto-metal the kind of precursor, how the psychedelic rock of the late 60's was often proto-prog or bands like Deep Purple and Blue Cheer being a precursor to heavy metal
 
Thank you very much, Psychedelic Teddy Bear Big smile
First, thus it means ground breaking  
Although strictly speaking the translation from greek is indeed "first", the term is more used to signify "precursor to", "ancestor", something which is still in the making, not yet fully formed, such as in prototype, in the term protogalaxy which astronomers use to refer to gas clouds which are still aggregating and will eventually form a galaxy in the future, or in protohuman which is sometimes used to refer to species ancestors to homo sapiens.

So it's not so much "the first" nor "groundbreaking" but "what would eventually become the first but was not yet".
So Proto-Prog = music from the 60's which was not yet proper Prog but paved the way towards Prog.


Edited by Gerinski - January 19 2013 at 22:27
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2013 at 03:25
Originally posted by Argonaught

Ozzie sure has a distinctive voice, along with an interesting personality, but frankly he can't be described as a uniquely talented vocalist. Freddy was one of a kind. 


Hey, they also had Ronnie James Dio, one of the most amazing, powerful voices in rock.   Dio never had nodules as far as I know either and kept the metal flag flying high until cancer took him away.  Cry


Also, I don't remember either growling or instrument abuse in Black Sabbath's music.   Their base was bluesy rock, just like DP or LZ but there was also an element of theater in their music, especially in Sabotage.   Taste is, well, a matter of taste and as for innovation...er, Queen dipped quite heavily in Sparks' box of chocolates so they are about as innovative as each other imo.   And as for musicianship,  you have probably never heard Sabbath's live improvisations.    I love Queen up to News of the World so this is not about Queen v/s Sabbath; hate having to compare favourites.  But it doesn't seem to me as if you have given one of the great rock bands of all time a fair shot.  



Edited by rogerthat - January 20 2013 at 03:26
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sumdeus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2013 at 04:31
Originally posted by Argonaugh

Queen also - in their productive period - showed some jaw-dropping musicianship, exquisite taste and quite a gusto for innovation. I don't believe that Black Sabbath ever were interested in any of these.



Sabbath didn't innovate and didn't have great musicianship? give me a break. it would seem you are right in that you don't know Sabbath well enough. I realize you said you don't like heavy metal much but it's silly to ignore the significance Sabbath holds to the genre, along with creating foundations for multiple other styles of metal


Edited by Sumdeus - January 20 2013 at 04:32
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ole-the-first Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2013 at 05:08
So Queen were fundational in many other subgenres of metal. I'd say that Queen were next metal band after Sabbath by the strength of their impact on heavy music.

Though Queen's influence is oftenly getting underrated, BUT it were Queen who played heavy metal without blues influence for the first time, being precursors to NWOBHM. And it were Queen who made first ever thrash metal and speed metal songs. They highly influenced on power metal subgenre as well and predicted the appearance of progressive metal on their first demo in 1971 (at that time only King Crimson and Uriah Heep were that close to prog metal, btw – maybe also High Tide, but they were too psychedelic and folky). And that's the matter of fact.


Edited by ole-the-first - January 20 2013 at 05:13
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sumdeus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2013 at 05:15
are you seriously comparing Queen's impact on metal to Sabbath's? I'm at a loss for words. Queen have had some metal elements at times but their importance to metal is minimal compared to what Sabbath did.


Edited by Sumdeus - January 20 2013 at 05:16
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ole-the-first Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2013 at 05:19
And there was very big cross-influence cetween Queen and Sabbath :)

Queen's debut LP had more Sabbath influence than Zep or anything else. Those wah-wah guitars in 'Great King Rat', for example, are really influenced by 'Electric Funeral'. Queen's live version of 'Son and Daughter' was almost a replica from Sabbath's version of 'Warning', they both had exactly the same structure 'song-long guitar solo-reprise'. it's a shame that this long solo was edited out of album version of 'Son and Daughter', though later it appeared in 'Brighton Rock'.

On the other hand, Sabbath's 'Sabotage' was, vice versa, very Queen-influenced. Main riff in 'Symptom of the Universe' was almost ripped off from Queen's 'Stone Cold Crazy', and the whole method of songwriting in Black Sabbath has really changed: at that time Iommi became a Queen fan and decided to spend more time in a studio, making more complex and sophisticated things.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ole-the-first Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2013 at 05:24
Originally posted by Sumdeus

are you seriously comparing Queen's impact on metal to Sabbath's? I'm at a loss for words. Queen have had some metal elements at times but their importance to metal is minimal compared to what Sabbath did.

Yup, I do.

Heavy metal was formed in late 60's in works by The Yardbirds/Led Zeppelin and King Crimson. So Sabbath didn't created a new genre, they just gave it a shape. And that was their merit.

And Queen were ground-breaking in creating and influencing on new metal genres. As I specified, it were NWOBHM, speed metal, thrash  metal, power metal and progressive metal. Dixi.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2013 at 05:41
I agree with Sumdeus,  Sabbath was far more influential to metal music.   The thing is, Queen did a lot of things that were incorporated by rock bands, metal or otherwise.   But they were rarely out and out metal themselves.   I can hear where the riffs of Stone Cold Crazy would fit in a metal song but the song itself doesn't feel particularly like metal....maybe it's a bit too stop-start for that (while thrash/speed metal tends to be unrelenting and steady).  I don't think the Symptom riff is a rip off of Stone Cold Crazy but be that as it may, the former possess a rage and anger that is a fundamental characteristic of metal and is not found in Stone Cold or most Queen songs, with exceptions like Death on two legs (which still leans towards dark humour rather than all out anger).   After Sabbath, the next band that was distinctly metal at all times and did a whole lot in influencing its direction was Judas Priest who are of course recognized as such in metal forums but are strangely disdained this aspect in other forums like PA.   
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2013 at 05:47
Contradictory arguments here:


Originally posted by ole-the-first


Yup, I do.

Heavy metal was formed in late 60's in works by The Yardbirds/Led Zeppelin and King Crimson. So Sabbath didn't created a new genre, they just gave it a shape. And that was their merit. 


Of those bands, KC was the only one who wrote precisely one song that could be characrerized as metal before Sabbath and that is of course Schizoid.   Dazed and Confused may be heavy but it is not any more metal than In the Flesh.   Sabbath were not the first to come up with all the elements that make up metal - and no one band ever is - but they were the first metal band.  

Originally posted by ole-the-first


And Queen were ground-breaking in creating and influencing on new metal genres. As I specified, it were NWOBHM, speed metal, thrash  metal, power metal and progressive metal. Dixi.


You'd surely have to acknowledge that Into the Void is not dispensable in the emergence of speed metal.   Likewise, In Rock is a very important  album for the development of speed metal.   Queen weren't in the picture at this point.  Thanks to Sabbath and DP, metal was a full fledged genre even before Queen had released their first album.   While Queen could write songs with elements of non-blues music with metal riffs, their approach was not immediately embraced in the 80s.    It was, again, JP who showed the way first and Iron Maiden and the rest of NWOBHM built on it.   Queen is an influence, no doubt, but a secondary one compared to Sabbath, DP, JP or even Scorpions or Van Halen (Roth and Michael Schenker hugely influenced metal lead guitar, need say nothing of Van Halen). 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ole-the-first Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2013 at 06:06
Well, there's a lot of points, but Queen came to speed metal much closer than anybody before. I am not arguing on Sabbath influence and I agree that they were first metal band, as I said, Sabbath gave a shape for metal.

Thn Queen influence was very notable, and it's very oftenly dismissed. 'Stone Cold Crazy', 'Ogre Battle' and 'Modern Times Rock'n'Roll' were faster, louder and heavier than anything before, and Purple are really losing their contest in heaviness in comparison to single 'Ogre Battle'.

There was really a lot of influences on heavy metal from many bands. My point was that Queen influence was much bigger than it's usually presented. Anyway, Metallica did they Queen cover much earlier before they covered Sabbath.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2013 at 07:13
I don't think the influence of songs like Ogre Battle or Stone Cold Crazy have ever been denied or dismissed in metal, but you are not going to find many takers for the theory that that influence amounts to something similar to Sabbath's influence on metal.    It is also irrelevant if Metallica covered Queen before Sabbath as that is just a happenstance.  The influence of Sabbath on their music is evident and it is evident in Slayer as well and even more so as we go to darker genres like death metal.   The essential sound of Queen is not very representative of metal and their influence on metal derives mainly from May's guitarwork and also (but more specifically in the case of power metal) their vocal harmonies.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sumdeus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2013 at 14:11
again, while Queen may have had some influence on metal their overall role in the genre is insignificant compared to actual metal bands... I'm still at a loss for words that someone would try to compare their influence to someone like Sabbath. you keep listing these genres, but Queen didn't create NWOBHM, nor speed metal, nor thrash, nor power, nor prog metal. They weren't even near the main foundation of those genres. Sabbath, on the other hand, pretty much were the first to play metal in the way they did which marked the line between hard rock and heavy metal, and also pretty much singlehandedly created other metal subgenres such as stoner metal and doom metal.


Edited by Sumdeus - January 20 2013 at 14:11
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ProgMetaller2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2013 at 16:15
Originally posted by Sumdeus

again, while Queen may have had some influence on metal their overall role in the genre is insignificant compared to actual metal bands... I'm still at a loss for words that someone would try to compare their influence to someone like Sabbath. you keep listing these genres, but Queen didn't create NWOBHM, nor speed metal, nor thrash, nor power, nor prog metal. They weren't even near the main foundation of those genres. Sabbath, on the other hand, pretty much were the first to play metal in the way they did which marked the line between hard rock and heavy metal, and also pretty much singlehandedly created other metal subgenres such as stoner metal and doom metal.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jonathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 31 2013 at 14:23
I pick Queen. I love both Bands though.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 31 2013 at 14:36
I love both bands, but Queen has to take this one.  They were just incredible and Freddie is imo the best vocalist ever.  Although, surprisingly, that video that was posted above for Too Much Love Will Kill You, I actually prefer the Brian May solo version with May singing the lead.  But then I didn't think Brian or Roger were slouches behind the mic either. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2013 at 20:44
I had trouble with this one. Iron man is dynamite with a laser beam. I voted for both.
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