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Complexity and enjoyment

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octopus-4 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2012 at 01:09
Originally posted by prog4evr prog4evr wrote:

Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

[Bruce Springsteen is NOT complex - Born in The U.S.A. is, well, insipid.........apologies if any readers here enjoy that one but I can't......... 

Finally. Somebody hears and sees it like I do. Can't stand Springsteen as well man. He's voice is comical to me. It's Adam Sandlers fault from SNL
Reminds me of when I was living in LA as a teenager in the mid-1970s, totally into early- and mid-70s prog at the time.  The LA Times music reviewer (I forget his name - and I am glad!) pontificated wildly about how inane progressive rock groups were; they did not even have a personal identity.  Then, came Springsteen in 1975 (thanks to a lot of contrived media hype - especially appearing on the cover of Time magazine) and this LA Times reviewer waxes eloquently about how refreshing Springsteen is, and so new; even with a personal identity - "Bruce Springsteen" - that everyone could relate to.  Needless to say, I lost total respect for the LA Times music reviews, and never - to this day - stand to listen to anything ever recorded by that propped-up poster-boy Springsteen...
[/QUOTE]
I purchased "Greetings from Ashbury Park" I think in 1978. I stil have to finish listening to it and probably I will never. There's still a lot of Bob Dylan , Arlo Guthrie and CSN &Y to waste time with Springsteen.
Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2012 at 01:23
I only mention Springsteen as an example of blatant simplicity (particularly that 'Born....' song) - he's very popular, relates to the masses, he's probably quite rich etc. but this is where Prog and complexities are needed to counter-balance foolish noise like this.  I'm sure if you presented Bruce with something like Pawn Hearts, it would have him grimacing for hours, days, years........he is a singer who plays guitar, not a musician.......(if you know what I'm getting at...).....his forte is all about simplicity and he obviously wins with that, but boy does he get under my skin.......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HarbouringTheSoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2012 at 04:02
Lots of hate for Springsteen here... Am I the only one who likes "Dancing in the Dark"?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neelus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2012 at 04:03
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

^ I gathered that. Anyway, I understood what he was driving at and he has created a very thoughtful and intellegent form. Thank you PEDRO!! Consider my mind blown!!
 
It's also something that comes with the TIME and the PLACE ... since the late 60's and early 70's were a GOD-send for experimental music and what not ... that today is NOT possible ... and today's folks, as well meaning as they are about the music discussion, are not very good at discussing these moments, most of which  ... are ... personal ... in the first place.
 


Not to stoke a fire or anything, but you also have to be careful making it look like the younger generations have no sense in discussing this classic art form, as then it appears that you are implying that it should die with your generation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2012 at 10:27
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul HarbouringTheSoul wrote:

Lots of hate for Springsteen here... Am I the only one who likes "Dancing in the Dark"?
I like only a few of his songs. Other than that, ... may god have mercy on his soul for being so boring and getting all American with his boobs in our faces.
"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2012 at 10:43
[QUOTE=octopus-4]
Reminds me of when I was living in LA as a teenager in the mid-1970s, totally into early- and mid-70s prog at the time.  The LA Times music reviewer (I forget his name - and I am glad!) pontificated wildly about how inane progressive rock groups were; they did not even have a personal identity.  
...
 
Robert HIlburn?
 
A veritable turkey that did not like music and was paid off by several music companies ... it was obvious.
 
Much to his chagrin, the groups he did not like made it really big and that got him mad ... one of these was Pink Floyd, and he didn't like the fact that Jim Ladd and then KMET, and KLOS got the credit and the kudos for some of these English bands, and then he went after the 2nd rate bands ... let's see ... he liked Sailor, Cockney Rebel, Nazareth and
a few others!
 
All in all, we already knew, that someone like him had no taste in music anyway and he was just another kid spouting crap about music.
 
Springsteen is not bad ... he's very good ... but he really is a commercial product, rather than an artist per se ... but the NY media makes more of this because he can sell 100k albums in a couple of hours over there, and that makes him important in the media ... and LA does not like to drag behind NY's skirts!
 
All in all, NONE, of the public reviewers, were ever intelligent enough in America, to even come close to the more insightful reviews adn comments made on Melody Maker or equivalent in London ... that's not to say that Lester Bangs was any better, but he was much more honest and direct than anyone else in LA, NY, or even SF. In SF you could only rely on Michael ODonohue ... until aids raked all of the folks from that ear in music! The abuses, was something that these reviewers never had the balls to attack ... to help save the music!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2012 at 11:16
Originally posted by Neelus Neelus wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

^ I gathered that. Anyway, I understood what he was driving at and he has created a very thoughtful and intellegent form. Thank you PEDRO!! Consider my mind blown!!
 
It's also something that comes with the TIME and the PLACE ... since the late 60's and early 70's were a GOD-send for experimental music and what not ... that today is NOT possible ... and today's folks, as well meaning as they are about the music discussion, are not very good at discussing these moments, most of which  ... are ... personal ... in the first place.
 


Not to stoke a fire or anything, but you also have to be careful making it look like the younger generations have no sense in discussing this classic art form, as then it appears that you are implying that it should die with your generation.
 
Not intended that way at all ... the point is/was that ... when the listening you have is wide, as ours was ... in those days AM was different from FM, and your friend was playing something else totally different ... today, the drumbeat in most of the bands listed is almost the same complete with the Bill Bruford snare drum ... louder each time to tell you that you are not a musician that can count silently, and after 40 years, if all the friends I have ever had are any indication, you lose the ability to keep an open mind for listening to music ... somehow, after a long time, you kind of make sense to many of those different things ... and if you spend time in many of these posts, there are a LOT of youngsters that are showing excellent abilities of listening, but right away someone kills it by asking for your favorite or best drummer! The most subjective and bizarre of all questions ... !!!
 
All in all, music does DIE with the generation, and I consider my generation an important one ... as so many artists are remembered on so many different areas of music ... but if you don't have the ear for "music" and understand the value of a Miles, or Keith Jarrett, or Henry Mancini, or Bernard Herrmann ... the whole thing tends to get blown up and wasted in "favorites".
 
And favorites will die faster than the real giants! But today, people are listening to "styles" ... which we NEVER did!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2012 at 11:23
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul HarbouringTheSoul wrote:

Lots of hate for Springsteen here... Am I the only one who likes "Dancing in the Dark"?
I like only a few of his songs. Other than that, ... may god have mercy on his soul for being so boring and getting all American with his boobs in our faces.
Probably digging a bit in his discography we can find something decent, but I don't feel this need. There's already so many good stuff around that one life is not enough to listen to everything.
Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2012 at 11:29
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


and after 40 years, if all the friends I have ever had are any indication, you lose the ability to keep an open mind for listening to music ... somehow, after a long time, you kind of make sense to many of those different things ... and if you spend time in many of these posts, there are a LOT of youngsters that are showing excellent abilities of listening, but right away someone kills it by asking for your favorite or best drummer! The most subjective and bizarre of all questions ... !!!
 


Very valid points, though I don't think it is specific to youngsters.  I think age is no bar when it comes to formulating opinions without enough information but I do agree that comparison only gets in the way of appreciating more music if you cannot retain your objectivity. 

As for drummers, not all of them sound the same.  Matt Chamberlain is a wonderful drummer and so is Charley Dayton.  I really appreciate some of Phil Seway's work.  Unfortunately, there's a kind of nerd like mentality prevalent in music discussions that just rejects anything that doesn't fit the "citius, altius, fortius" motto.  Anything that is subtle, tasteful and creative ought to be eschewed in favour of the fast and the flashy, that's the way it goes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2012 at 11:36
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul HarbouringTheSoul wrote:

Lots of hate for Springsteen here... Am I the only one who likes "Dancing in the Dark"?
I like only a few of his songs. Other than that, ... may god have mercy on his soul for being so boring and getting all American with his boobs in our faces.
Probably digging a bit in his discography we can find something decent, but I don't feel this need. There's already so many good stuff around that one life is not enough to listen to everything.
 
I think it was one of those London specials, or something ... that Springsteen played on, and Shankar (double violinist from India) was there with him ... and Bruce goes ... what key you in, man? ... and Shankar goes ... you, my friend, no worry about the key I play ... you just play and join in!
 
I don't think that we had to "know" music that much ... but it kinda tells you that Bruce is not as much about the feel of it, as he thinks he is?
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TODDLER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2012 at 19:19

I feel drawn to arrangements. Those who have the talent to arrange complex sections to fall perfectly in place. Musican/composers often utilize this so called channel. Energy levels that are spiritual or of the underworld channel through a musician and they may create a piece of music that is beautiful in complexity and melodic form. The musician doesn't have to believe in a religion. Musicians are fearful regarding what can be produced by their own hands. When this energy weirdness wakes the musician from their sleep..they hear the notes , run downstairs, turn on the recorder and play. They don't seem to have control over what kind of specific energy channels through them. They don't usually ask questions to the unknown. They just compose, release it from their creative mind and move on. I know prog musicians experience this and I like the concept.

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"It is our goal to expand the frontiers of contemporarary popular music at the risk of being very unpopular"
" From the outset we have abandoned all preconceived thoughts on blatant commersialism. Instead we hope to give you something far more substantial & fulfilling. All you need to do is to is sit back, and acquire the taste"   GG.
The true essence of prgressive of  music IMO.


Edited by Aquiring the Taste - November 01 2012 at 07:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2012 at 23:18
^ For your information, "acquire" is spelt with a "c" before "q".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote prog4evr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2012 at 23:24
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

 
Robert HIlburn?
A veritable turkey that did not like music and was paid off by several music companies ... it was obvious.
Yes, thank you, Moshkito!  Actually - no.  Now, that I remember who that "turkey" is, I am getting upset with him all over again!


Edited by prog4evr - October 31 2012 at 23:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote prog4evr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2012 at 23:26
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul HarbouringTheSoul wrote:

Lots of hate for Springsteen here... Am I the only one who likes "Dancing in the Dark"?
Stone the heretic!!  Who's with me?!?


Edited by prog4evr - October 31 2012 at 23:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2012 at 23:49
^ We are proggers, not barbarians, muchacho.
"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2012 at 23:54
Did I open a can of worms ???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2012 at 00:05
^ Depends on how you look at it. We have spent an entire page on Springsteen when in fact we should just go ...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2012 at 13:16
Originally posted by prog4evr prog4evr wrote:

Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul HarbouringTheSoul wrote:

Lots of hate for Springsteen here... Am I the only one who likes "Dancing in the Dark"?
Stone the heretic!!  Who's with me?!?
I have never intentionally listed to any Springstein - I have had it played at me - it has no resonance with me - I don't think he should be stoned...put him in a sensory depravation tank and play him prog epics one after the other till he sees the pointlessness of the Commerically acceptible product that Springstein produces......
Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ytse_Jam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2012 at 07:33
Hell, Born in the USA is a very good album
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