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Neelus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neelus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2012 at 10:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote QuestionableScum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2012 at 13:21
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Prog doesn't groove, that's why we like it and why it's fanbase is mostly beard-stroking academics and lonely geeks uninterested in the repetitive drone of soul-based music.   It embraces the cerebral and ambitious.  Nothing wrong with that.


This is odd to me because detroit techno and the early incarnations of minimal techno are extremely repetitive and soul based, but I would consider both to be ambitious and cerebral given the ideas behind both subgenres.

One can have a cerebral ambitious concept that requires soulfulness and extreme repetition.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2012 at 16:15
Two thoughts - 1. It depends on the band. 2. I don't care. Groovy, dude.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote QuestionableScum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2012 at 17:28
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

The general listening public's obsession with "groove" has ended up in techno music.  The beat is pounded out with a simulated kick drum in 4/4 time by a computer so it can't get off time... and the mindless masses just love it because it is simple and relates to their own basic need for simplicity.I think the great prog bands did implement "groove" at times and used it as a color to the sound or piece... and it was done tastefully.  Certainly Genesis did a lot of groove.  "Fly on the Windshield" for example has a heavy and slow groove.  Gentle Giant was all about grooving and did so tastefully often in odd meters.  Floyd too, certainly that long groovy stretch in "Echos" or "One of these Days"But of course the prog bands stretched out beyond just groove and I think the musicians did not want to be limited to only "groove" but saw it as just a color or paint pot to dip into from time to time.  Any form of music has it's rules, and prog is no exception.... but I would say it has the least amount of rules of any genre.. which makes it interesting for those who don't like a lot of rules.  But make no mistake.. there are still rules... and good ones.


First of all I think you do not know what the term techno means, as techno is probably the most avowedly artistic and anti-commercial form of dance music. If it gets played on the radio or you heard it at a mainstream club it is probably "EDM" not techno. You might want to take the time to research what techno means before using the term, but unfortunately the term is often misused.

In fact the influences that lead to the first wave of detroit techno in the mid to late eighties were p-funk, kraftwerk, tangerine dream, as well as early chicago house.

For an example of classic techno see this performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE8x4EZgOos

Also, I don't see what is wrong with a four to the floor rhythm. It is simple but artists like Rob Hood do more interesting things with a four to the floor beat and minimal instrumentation, than a lot of contemporary prog which just rehashes the past, and much of classic prog as well.

When I think of prog and groove I think of Gentle Giant, zeuhl, and the canterbury scene.

Edited by QuestionableScum - November 11 2012 at 17:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2012 at 18:02
I am going to use the term techno as music that has been recorded with samples and computer driven quantized rhythms void of any live playing sensation at the core of the rhythm track other than maybe someone banging on about something over the top of this lifeless nonsense.

I get to say this on a Prog forum don't I? Angry




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2012 at 18:09
Speaking of Groove..
I'm listening to King Crimson "Beat" on the vinyl player and there is some serious Prog grooving going on.  Listening to Bill on the electronic kit is exactly what a good Prog drummer should be doing.  The guitar picture is very multi dimensional in it's layering and the Levin is grooving the low end no doubt.  Lots of odd metering going on with 80's sounds and it leaves me feeling very good about what those guys were doing then.  It still feels human and reaching for it's time.. yet remains truly in the spirit of vintage prog exploration and virtuosity tastefully presented.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2012 at 19:34
Originally posted by QuestionableScum QuestionableScum wrote:

Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

The general listening public's obsession with "groove" has ended up in techno music.  The beat is pounded out with a simulated kick drum in 4/4 time by a computer so it can't get off time... and the mindless masses just love it because it is simple and relates to their own basic need for simplicity.I think the great prog bands did implement "groove" at times and used it as a color to the sound or piece... and it was done tastefully.  Certainly Genesis did a lot of groove.  "Fly on the Windshield" for example has a heavy and slow groove.  Gentle Giant was all about grooving and did so tastefully often in odd meters.  Floyd too, certainly that long groovy stretch in "Echos" or "One of these Days"But of course the prog bands stretched out beyond just groove and I think the musicians did not want to be limited to only "groove" but saw it as just a color or paint pot to dip into from time to time.  Any form of music has it's rules, and prog is no exception.... but I would say it has the least amount of rules of any genre.. which makes it interesting for those who don't like a lot of rules.  But make no mistake.. there are still rules... and good ones.


First of all I think you do not know what the term techno means, as techno is probably the most avowedly artistic and anti-commercial form of dance music. If it gets played on the radio or you heard it at a mainstream club it is probably "EDM" not techno. You might want to take the time to research what techno means before using the term, but unfortunately the term is often misused.

In fact the influences that lead to the first wave of detroit techno in the mid to late eighties were p-funk, kraftwerk, tangerine dream, as well as early chicago house.

For an example of classic techno see this performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE8x4EZgOos

Also, I don't see what is wrong with a four to the floor rhythm. It is simple but artists like Rob Hood do more interesting things with a four to the floor beat and minimal instrumentation, than a lot of contemporary prog which just rehashes the past, and much of classic prog as well.

When I think of prog and groove I think of Gentle Giant, zeuhl, and the canterbury scene.


   He definitely should do his research on TECHNO. it's not all garbage repetitive hump hump beats that you here on today's crappy radio. Richard D. James helped build the Cornish Acid techno movement with his project Aphex Twin. I really like his music and it's nothing like that stale garbage mentioned above.
If you have sensitive and analytical sound equipment quality after market audio interconnects/cables make a HUGE difference in overall sound quality...Wider soundstage, reduced microphonics etc etc..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2012 at 20:14
All these genres need to be explored... but if there is percussion in music, and that beat is being generated artificially by a computer.. then it just is what it is.

You listen to that stuff not me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 16:20
Try Billy Cobham's Stratus and if that doesn't groove, well?????? Its a prog as music gets. Sultana Detrii from Ozric Tentacles, Bumpin' on Sunset by Brian Auger's Oblivion Express. I could name many others with sick grooves. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote QuestionableScum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 18:34
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

I am going to use the term techno as music that has been recorded with samples and computer driven quantized rhythms void of any live playing sensation at the core of the rhythm track other than maybe someone banging on about something over the top of this lifeless nonsense.I get to say this on a Prog forum don't I? Angry


Then you would be using the term inappropriately. Using the term "techno" that way is as absurd as referring to all music with harsh vocals as brutal death metal.

I don't care what your tastes are, but I think you owe it to yourself as well as everybody to try to use terms appropriately. :P


Call it lifeless nonsense if you wish but Derrick May, Juan Atkins, Jeff Mills, Carl Craig, Kevin Saunderson, Kenny Larkin and Robert Hood are a hell of a lot more innovative than most derivative retro prog rock.

In a way calling techno lifeless is a compliment given that techno often is intended to be austere rather than warm and emotionally resonant. :P




Edited by QuestionableScum - November 12 2012 at 18:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2012 at 01:54
 
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

I am going to use the term techno as music that has been recorded with samples and computer driven quantized rhythms void of any live playing sensation at the core of the rhythm track other than maybe someone banging on about something over the top of this lifeless nonsense.I get to say this on a Prog forum don't I? Angry
 

This is a point on which I strongly disagree, regardless the terminology used. With this sentence almost all the progressive electronic subgenre should  not be considered as real music. It's like saying that Beethoven shouldn't have written anything after becoming deaf. Typing on a PC keyboard and writing with a pen on music paper is not that different. Of course there's a huge difference between Keith Emerson and Phrozenlight, especially because the second never plays live, but composing and playing are two different activities. There are good and bad performers as well as good and bad composers. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2012 at 08:36
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

 
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

I am going to use the term techno as music that has been recorded with samples and computer driven quantized rhythms void of any live playing sensation at the core of the rhythm track other than maybe someone banging on about something over the top of this lifeless nonsense.I get to say this on a Prog forum don't I? Angry
 
This is a point on which I strongly disagree, regardless the terminology used. With this sentence almost all the progressive electronic subgenre should  not be considered as real music. It's like saying that Beethoven shouldn't have written anything after becoming deaf. Typing on a PC keyboard and writing with a pen on music paper is not that different. Of course there's a huge difference between Keith Emerson and Phrozenlight, especially because the second never plays live, but composing and playing are two different activities. There are good and bad performers as well as good and bad composers. 


While I agree with your objection, the Issue is whether it grooves or not. I think that remains a fair though not decided question.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2012 at 08:44
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

 
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

I am going to use the term techno as music that has been recorded with samples and computer driven quantized rhythms void of any live playing sensation at the core of the rhythm track other than maybe someone banging on about something over the top of this lifeless nonsense.I get to say this on a Prog forum don't I? Angry
 
This is a point on which I strongly disagree, regardless the terminology used. With this sentence almost all the progressive electronic subgenre should  not be considered as real music. It's like saying that Beethoven shouldn't have written anything after becoming deaf. Typing on a PC keyboard and writing with a pen on music paper is not that different. Of course there's a huge difference between Keith Emerson and Phrozenlight, especially because the second never plays live, but composing and playing are two different activities. There are good and bad performers as well as good and bad composers. 


While I agree with your objection, the Issue is whether it grooves or not. I think that remains a fair though not decided question.
Well...effectively progressive electronic it's a kind of music that's not meant to groove. But there's some noisy /techno psych which may. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2WeeksInSpain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 25 2012 at 19:00

2 words.. John Weathers!

 
man that guy makes GG groove Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kglenz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 23:15
Mr. Bungle/Patton doesn’t groove? Eloy? Gong? Toto? (Rosanna didn’t groove?) “Carry on my wayward son”? Groove? Just because the entire song isn’t one repetition of a groove that is milked endlessly like a Kiss or AC/CD song… “And Justice” had groove - prog grooves - it just morphs into other tempos & genre’s - like classical & jazz - there are sections within a song that unite to provide selective grooves that are priceless & those in the know wait with their ears drooling for that section - Brand X had amazing groove - zappa grooved, Led Zep’s “ha ha momma say the way you move gonna make you sweat gonna make you groove…” Yes even had ‘close to the edge’ - odd tempo/time signature grooves rule! Even Dave Brubeck provided some...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 23:25
Yesterday I've been at the Jethro Tull's gig. After TAAB and TAAB 2 the have played just one bis: "Locomotive Breath"
It grooves, believe me. Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 23:28
^ Lucky duck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Remembermrsandy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2012 at 11:41
"Prog" has become a general term that encompasses many styles of music that don't always relate to each other that closely. Compare Yes to Animals As Leaders, both are assigned their specific Prog sub-genre but personally I find them so different that it seems arbitrary to refer to both as Prog. The word Prog has become so vague. 

Listen with your whole body. Some music grooves, some doesn't 

Some "Prog" grooves, some doesn't. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rdtprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2012 at 17:00
I love it when i can find something to groove in the progressive rock music, but it can depend on what it takes you to groove on. What excite you? You can find it in a guitar riff, often in a rhythmic pattern or a music that is played on a fast pace. It is often related to Jazz and pop, but you can find it also in prog that have some fusion or pop and jazz elements.
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