Prog does not groove?

Originally posted by Atavachron Prog doesn't groove, that's why we like it and why it's fanbase is mostly beard-stroking academics and lonely geeks uninterested in the repetitive drone of soul-based music.   It embraces the cerebral and ambitious.  Nothing wrong with that.

This is odd to me because detroit techno and the early incarnations of minimal techno are extremely repetitive and soul based, but I would consider both to be ambitious and cerebral given the ideas behind both subgenres.

One can have a cerebral ambitious concept that requires soulfulness and extreme repetition.

Originally posted by Surrealist The general listening public's obsession with "groove" has ended up in techno music.  The beat is pounded out with a simulated kick drum in 4/4 time by a computer so it can't get off time... and the mindless masses just love it because it is simple and relates to their own basic need for simplicity.I think the great prog bands did implement "groove" at times and used it as a color to the sound or piece... and it was done tastefully.  Certainly Genesis did a lot of groove.  "Fly on the Windshield" for example has a heavy and slow groove.  Gentle Giant was all about grooving and did so tastefully often in odd meters.  Floyd too, certainly that long groovy stretch in "Echos" or "One of these Days"But of course the prog bands stretched out beyond just groove and I think the musicians did not want to be limited to only "groove" but saw it as just a color or paint pot to dip into from time to time.  Any form of music has it's rules, and prog is no exception.... but I would say it has the least amount of rules of any genre.. which makes it interesting for those who don't like a lot of rules.  But make no mistake.. there are still rules... and good ones.

First of all I think you do not know what the term techno means, as techno is probably the most avowedly artistic and anti-commercial form of dance music. If it gets played on the radio or you heard it at a mainstream club it is probably "EDM" not techno. You might want to take the time to research what techno means before using the term, but unfortunately the term is often misused.

In fact the influences that lead to the first wave of detroit techno in the mid to late eighties were p-funk, kraftwerk, tangerine dream, as well as early chicago house.

For an example of classic techno see this performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE8x4EZgOos

Also, I don't see what is wrong with a four to the floor rhythm. It is simple but artists like Rob Hood do more interesting things with a four to the floor beat and minimal instrumentation, than a lot of contemporary prog which just rehashes the past, and much of classic prog as well.

When I think of prog and groove I think of Gentle Giant, zeuhl, and the canterbury scene.

Edited by QuestionableScum - November 11 2012 at 17:31

Speaking of Groove..
I'm listening to King Crimson "Beat" on the vinyl player and there is some serious Prog grooving going on.  Listening to Bill on the electronic kit is exactly what a good Prog drummer should be doing.  The guitar picture is very multi dimensional in it's layering and the Levin is grooving the low end no doubt.  Lots of odd metering going on with 80's sounds and it leaves me feeling very good about what those guys were doing then.  It still feels human and reaching for it's time.. yet remains truly in the spirit of vintage prog exploration and virtuosity tastefully presented.

All these genres need to be explored... but if there is percussion in music, and that beat is being generated artificially by a computer.. then it just is what it is.

You listen to that stuff not me.

Originally posted by Surrealist I am going to use the term techno as music that has been recorded with samples and computer driven quantized rhythms void of any live playing sensation at the core of the rhythm track other than maybe someone banging on about something over the top of this lifeless nonsense.I get to say this on a Prog forum don't I?

Then you would be using the term inappropriately. Using the term "techno" that way is as absurd as referring to all music with harsh vocals as brutal death metal.

I don't care what your tastes are, but I think you owe it to yourself as well as everybody to try to use terms appropriately. :P


Call it lifeless nonsense if you wish but Derrick May, Juan Atkins, Jeff Mills, Carl Craig, Kevin Saunderson, Kenny Larkin and Robert Hood are a hell of a lot more innovative than most derivative retro prog rock.

In a way calling techno lifeless is a compliment given that techno often is intended to be austere rather than warm and emotionally resonant. :P




Edited by QuestionableScum - November 12 2012 at 18:39

Originally posted by octopus-4   Originally posted by Surrealist I am going to use the term techno as music that has been recorded with samples and computer driven quantized rhythms void of any live playing sensation at the core of the rhythm track other than maybe someone banging on about something over the top of this lifeless nonsense.I get to say this on a Prog forum don't I?   This is a point on which I strongly disagree, regardless the terminology used. With this sentence almost all the progressive electronic subgenre should  not be considered as real music. It's like saying that Beethoven shouldn't have written anything after becoming deaf. Typing on a PC keyboard and writing with a pen on music paper is not that different. Of course there's a huge difference between Keith Emerson and Phrozenlight, especially because the second never plays live, but composing and playing are two different activities. There are good and bad performers as well as good and bad composers.

While I agree with your objection, the Issue is whether it grooves or not. I think that remains a fair though not decided question.

2 words.. John Weathers!

Yesterday I've been at the Jethro Tull's gig. After TAAB and TAAB 2 the have played just one bis: "Locomotive Breath"

"Prog" has become a general term that encompasses many styles of music that don't always relate to each other that closely. Compare Yes to Animals As Leaders, both are assigned their specific Prog sub-genre but personally I find them so different that it seems arbitrary to refer to both as Prog. The word Prog has become so vague. 

I love it when i can find something to groove in the progressive rock music, but it can depend on what it takes you to groove on. What excite you? You can find it in a guitar riff, often in a rhythmic pattern or a music that is played on a fast pace. It is often related to Jazz and pop, but you can find it also in prog that have some fusion or pop and jazz elements.