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Prog does not groove?

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progbethyname View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Prog does not groove?
    Posted: December 05 2012 at 18:56
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

^ What are they in relation to?


Some Jazz styles in general. For instance, I really can't get into the rio avant/guarde jazz style of John Zorn. It's like stabbing litte pins into my brain one at a time. I think it's because maybe he combines some kind of a grindcore with his saxaphone playing and it just drives me up the wall. It's sounds like scattered noises, where by its like he is showing off his skillful saxaphone playing with no cohesion or direction. It's just mental masterbation for the listener. Can't get into that style of jazz.

Sorry. I should have been more specific to the style of jazz that erks me.
I'm sure your link is much nicer.
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irrelevant View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote irrelevant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2012 at 22:14
Originally posted by Remembermrsandy

Originally posted by irrelevant

Prog is not a sound-based genre, that's why it's often difficult to explain what it is.
Do you mean that prog is defined more by conceptual manners of composition and technique (Odd times signatures, long compositions, fusing of genres, boundary dissolving etc) rather than the actual experience of the "sound" or music referred to as prog?

I think not conceptually. But yeah, putting it very simply I think it's all in the composition, that's why Genesis and Behold... The Arctopus can be put in one same (but very large) circle, if you get my drift. Welcome to the site too. Smile


Edited by irrelevant - December 05 2012 at 22:17
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ytse_Jam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2012 at 06:14
Originally posted by progbethyname

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

^ Seriously? You call that scattered and disorganized noises? Thou might as well calleth "Discreet Music" a bunch of scattered and disorganized noises.


Not your link in general. There is nothing to open here. My comments are not in relation to your link.
His link is a perfect example of non-groovy jazz that isn't only a bunch of noises, don't you think?

EDIT: sorry, I did read your last post Smile


Edited by Ytse_Jam - December 06 2012 at 06:15
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2012 at 21:01
Originally posted by Ytse_Jam



Originally posted by progbethyname

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

^ Seriously? You call that scattered and disorganized noises? Thou might as well calleth "Discreet Music" a bunch of scattered and disorganized noises.


Not your link in general. There is nothing to open here. My comments are not in relation to your link.

His link is a perfect example of non-groovy jazz that isn't only a bunch of noises, don't you think?
EDIT: sorry, I did read your last post Smile



For some reason I can't open it through my I phone, but if I had a PC it would probably work. I gotta get another computer.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote awaken77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2012 at 02:43
Originally posted by Neelus

Spoke to a blues rock fanatic yesterday, and he told me the reason prog rock is not widely loved is the fact that it does not groove, and therefore has no soul. 

Suggest him to listen Magma Big smile   It does groove, for sure


Edited by awaken77 - December 10 2012 at 02:43
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2012 at 11:23
Remember guys. I'm saying some styles of Jazz to me are an array of noise pollution. Not all styles. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote KingCrInuYasha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2012 at 17:26
Originally posted by Neelus

Spoke to a blues rock fanatic yesterday, and he told me the reason prog rock is not widely loved is the fact that it does not groove, and therefore has no soul. 


And yet, blues has soul, why?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dwill123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2012 at 18:13
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2012 at 18:21
^ I bet that Gurtu syncopation will never cease to amaze me.

Not quite sure if anyone has mentioned this one, seeing that we have nine pages of punishing our beloved blues-rock fanatic: Soft Machine's Third, anyone? Tracks 1, 2, and 4?

Edited by Dayvenkirq - December 30 2012 at 23:57
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ProcolWho? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2012 at 23:37
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ProcolWho? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2012 at 23:42
 The world is filled with folk that aren't capable of appreciating prog.

 Your friend is just one of many.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote reformationband Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2013 at 09:37
There is plenty of prog that grooves. Pink Floyd grooves hardcore, and they are one of the most influential prog bands that ever existed.  The blues rock fanatic the OP is talking about is obviously a very close minded person. And the thing about blues rock is that it's cool until you realize that alot of them are basically just blues shuffles or minor variations on it. That gets old after hearing it in 10,000 different songs.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2013 at 16:33
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/bEX85p1R308" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
i would recommend David Sancious and Tone to anyone who thinks prog can't groove. at the very least it shows that symphonic ideas can be fused with those of soul music.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ProgEpics Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2013 at 09:23
One more red nightmare has some NASTY grooves in it. And pink floyd is heavily blues influenced and play many blues type grooves, especially on dark side and shine on.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Salt Peanuts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2013 at 00:24
Hello.
I joined this forum mainly to address this thread question; Does Prog groove?

I asked this question of my first drum teacher back in the late 70s. His answer "Yes, but things groove in their own way." Today, after a 30+ year career as a professional drummer, I agree. If the music has a pulse that propels it forward, then essentially that is "groove".

If we look back at the history of what was once called Symphonic rock, there is ample evidence, not only of pulse, but even what a Motown fan might call groove, or feel. The point that escqpes many people who dislike Prog, is that those involved in creating it grew up listenning to Motown, Stax and various other pop styles emanating from America. People such as Phil Collins and Peter Hammill loved that music. And they were not alone.

Listenning from my vantage point, the drum throne, it is obvious that groove exists. An example might be Cinema show, where Phil Collins plays a rhythm that is obviously born in the James Brown songbook. And Phil and the band nail it. Even Carl Palmer, who had to be more interactive in an arrangement, kept the 1/4 note pulse going during fills. Just listen to his tom rolls during Tarkus. The 1/4 note pulse is respected and felt, if not heard, by the listener.

Many people who are not musicians, are fond of their opinions. And good luck to them. This does not mean they are learned. As a musician I have heard many many opinions from drunks and the sober after, before and sadly, during performances. Indeed, noteworthy was the drunk who accused me of being an infamous murderer. I smiled and thanked him for staying and watching the show, regardless of my grissly past.

All music grooves, in its own way. Unless the musicians playing it are terrible. Starting, I must say, with the drummer. And good drummers groove.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Kati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2013 at 00:52
Originally posted by Neelus

Spoke to a blues rock fanatic yesterday, and he told me the reason prog rock is not widely loved is the fact that it does not groove, and therefore has no soul. 
I tried to explain to him that complex rhythms has the ability to groove fantastically, it all depends where you place the accents.  He basically closed the argument by saying that most people like to groove, and few like prog, so let the evidence speak for itself.  We ended up chatting about the Allman Brothers, a band we both like, and agreed to disagree on the previous subject.  I dont know, does prog rock not groove?
 
Neelus, people who do not listen to prog have a wrong perception of it, completely wrong. To me blues and rock constantly played in most the predictable 3 chords does not interest me either, on the contrary I hate it. No soul this is odd or crazy too because prog can be most explosive exciting while also be most touching reaching a fabulous most brilliant climax, this feeling one will never get with plain blues or rock which is just consistant the expected.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ajay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2013 at 01:01
Originally posted by Salt Peanuts

All music grooves, in its own way. Unless the musicians playing it are terrible. Starting, I must say, with the drummer. And good drummers groove.

Exactly. Ask any mix engineer. If it makes you tap your foot or bob your head or play air guitar or air drums or air Moog or sing or clap along, it grooves.

Except for Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift never grooves.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Salt Peanuts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2013 at 02:45
Many thanks Ajay.
I note within this thread that many people respond to criticism of prog by criticising other styles. Music is music. Style is unimportant and an 8th note looks like an 8th note when written down.

In my youth I was a prog snob. I thought prog outshone blues and pop. Naive to the point of foolishness. Uneducated, certainly. I learned from my many wonderful teachers and more experienced musicians I worked with just how wrong I was. Many of these lessons were screamed at me by angry band leaders. Needless to say, I took the lessons to heart.

Is there a superior form of music, a better music than any other? No. That idea is born of racism in the European conservatories of the past. A symphony MUST be superior to an African of Indian savage beating a drum. Nonsense. Chopin playing his triplets is better than an Indian playing triplets, how? The music is just different.

Fans of prog enjoy a form of pop music. Just as fans of hip hop enjoy a form of pop music. Any professional musician should be able to play a prog song. Just as they should be able to play funk, samba or country and western.

As a player, I have played many styles. It is what must be done if one wishes to pay the rent. A prog gig on Monday, a jazz gig on Tuesday. It is all the same. One style simply has a different approach from another. Prog and other forms of R&B are felt more on the downbeat. Latin and Brasilian styles are felt more on the upbeat. Jazz is swung and highly syncopated and communication in the moment is the key. It is this highly evolved syncopation that hides its beauty from the average rock listener. The brain is unable to distinguish and sort the various rhythms. I often have to help students through this sophisticated litening exercise. This is why it doesn't sell. And is why Earl Palmer and others added the backbeat.

Prog as a style is like any other western pop music form. It began with the 6-8 clave of the Oruba people from Nigeria, transported as slaves to the new world. This rhythm gave birth to many others, such as blues. The shuffle behind Fanfare for the common man owes as much to that birth rite as the jump blues bands in Chicago and New York in the 1930s, the music that began all form of what we call rock and roll.

For me, a student of music, there is not enough time in the day to take it all in. Everywhere I look I find startling new music. A student gave me a book on gamelan music for xmas. I was fascinated and begin instruction next Thursday. I am already searching for bells to buy. Latin music and jazz, African, Indian, samba.... Human beings have created wondrous forms of music. I am trying to learn as much as possible, but I am left humbled by my inadequacy and lack of time.

My advice to any open minded music lover is this; if ever you hear a musical style you do not understand, listen to it over and over until you do. The fault is not with the music. Music has no faults. It is simply that one does not understand the music. There is a form of music to suit every facet of the human condition. And that is why it exists.

Even One Direction. Because that young girl needs them.

By the way, I am deeply in love with music.

Thanks again Ajay.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote elbownut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2013 at 04:53
At the end of the day, what constitiutes "groove" will differ from person to person
 
Whilst I wouldnt expect to hear wall-to-wall prog at a "knees-up" type of party ie wedding, I think that prog grooves in places.
 
Certainly recall moving around to Roundabout and Ive Seen all good people when seeing Yes live in the 70s !Smile
 
Numerous other examples already mentioned
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Post Options Post Options   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2013 at 20:40
My friend, keyboardist Mychael Pollard, certainly DOES groove!  Check out this funky stuff! 




Edited by cstack3 - February 04 2013 at 20:42
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