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Joined: May 12 2009
Location: Coolwood
Status: Offline
Points: 6387
Posted: October 28 2012 at 01:16
KingCrInuYasha wrote:
Here's a bunch by King Crimson:
21st Century Schizoid Man Pictures Of A City Cat Food Indoor Games Ladies Of The Road Sailor's Tale Easy Money Talking Drum Lark's Tongues In Aspic Part II Lament Red One More Red Nightmare Providence (bass solo section) Indiscipline Thela Hun Ginjeet Matte Kudasai Frame By Frame Sartori In Tangier Waiting Man Heartbeat Man With An Open Heart Three With A Perfect Pair
Pokes a very big hole in the claim that progressive rock has no groove.
Talking Drum has one of the best grooves ever. Just start that bass line going and everyone will pick up on it.
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Points: 10970
Posted: October 28 2012 at 01:58
^ Now that recently there had been a few mentions of Starless and Bible Black, ... come on - it is King Crimson's turn when it comes to grooving. Take the whole of that album; about 50% of it is grooving, improvisations here and there. Gees, this blues-rock fanatic is not gonna have a homework assignment; he is gonna have a freaking semester project to complete with our suggestions.
Joined: October 19 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 346
Posted: October 28 2012 at 07:34
If I understand correctly what is prog, and I have a feeling for what grooves, then this just drowned me in an ocean of groovy jazzy funky progginess (starting around the 3:40min mark all the way to the end)
Joined: April 01 2009
Location: Atlanta
Status: Offline
Points: 26133
Posted: October 28 2012 at 08:02
To be fair to the hypothetical "bad guy" in this discussion, I think the "groove" he means is more than just a good beat. Plenty of prog around with that, as we've shown. But I think there's something else they see as missing. Say I'm at a party. A groovy playlist is playing, and everyone's having a good time. I think, "some Crimson would really take this soiree to a new level!" So I put on the groooviest, slinkiest Crim track, a sure thing. And immediately everyone stops dancing and looks around uncomfortably. Within a few minutes someone puts the old mix back on.
I think the question/problem is, why does this happen? What's missing? This scenario has actually happened to me, and I think it has its roots in this "groove" conundrum. This gulf does exist. But why?
Edited by HolyMoly - October 28 2012 at 08:03
My other avatar is a Porsche
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Posted: October 28 2012 at 09:05
Because some people want steady music and not necessarily something with lots of changes, surprises and disruptions. It's after all a party and not a focused listening session. I mentioned GG as some groovy prog but even that has a stop start quality that a lot of prog generally does. Nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with music that relies on the momentum of a steady groove either.
Joined: January 19 2012
Location: Ohio
Status: Offline
Points: 13
Posted: October 28 2012 at 11:50
Progosopher wrote:
KingCrInuYasha wrote:
Here's a bunch by King Crimson:
21st Century Schizoid Man Pictures Of A City Cat Food Indoor Games Ladies Of The Road Sailor's Tale Easy Money Talking Drum Lark's Tongues In Aspic Part II Lament Red One More Red Nightmare Providence (bass solo section) Indiscipline Thela Hun Ginjeet Matte Kudasai Frame By Frame Sartori In Tangier Waiting Man Heartbeat Man With An Open Heart Three With A Perfect Pair
Pokes a very big hole in the claim that progressive rock has no groove.
Talking Drum has one of the best grooves ever. Just start that bass line going and everyone will pick up on it.
YES!
Talking Drum is one of the best grooves ever. Also, Thela Hun Ginjeet
Joined: October 24 2007
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 2505
Posted: October 28 2012 at 12:20
In general prog does nog grove, but of course we can mention bands like Can, Magma and others that make up an exception. It is true that a strong emphasis on the rhythmical dimension of music can make it more easily acceptable for many peoples ears.
Joined: January 24 2012
Location: Behind the Sun
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Points: 12859
Posted: October 28 2012 at 13:40
Dayvenkirq wrote:
I don't think that groove and soul have anything to do with each other. I find grooves purposeful for dancing or just getting energized. Soul has nothing to do with that. Soul is about beauty.
This!
That said, of course prog can groove. A lot of good examples of that in this thread. Neelus, your friend is simply wrong! Go straight up to him and tell him that...or not, if you want to keep the friendship
Joined: August 16 2011
Location: Scotland, UK
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Points: 327
Posted: October 28 2012 at 14:42
Soul is such a loose word it is almost meaningless.
If it means that it can make you feel deep emotions then Prog has as much soul as any other genre- perhaps more than some (Pop comes to mind here!).
From the melancholy of Talk Talks's Spirit of Eden, or the overwhelming sadness in Pain of Salvation's Remedy Lane to sheer joy in large swathes of Yes, Genesis , Spock's Beard and The Flower Kings.
I'm sure everyone has their own list, but for music to touch us, and move us is for it to have its most lasting effect. I can appreciate some music, enjoy it on an intellectual level, but if it doesn't move me I won't listen to it very often.
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Points: 10970
Posted: October 28 2012 at 15:47
^ That's right. All you plastic music lovers, eat yer fecking hearts out.
wjohnd wrote:
Soul is such a loose word it is almost meaningless. If it means that it can make you feel deep emotions ... .
OK, I'm pretty sure that we were not talking about the elements of soul in prog, so I don't know any other meaning of the word "soul" that we could have possibly been using in the ongoing discussion. If that blues-rock fanatic meant the elements of soul music, he would say that.
Joined: May 12 2009
Location: Coolwood
Status: Offline
Points: 6387
Posted: October 28 2012 at 16:27
HolyMoly wrote:
To be fair to the hypothetical "bad guy" in this discussion, I think the "groove" he means is more than just a good beat. Plenty of prog around with that, as we've shown. But I think there's something else they see as missing. Say I'm at a party. A groovy playlist is playing, and everyone's having a good time. I think, "some Crimson would really take this soiree to a new level!" So I put on the groooviest, slinkiest Crim track, a sure thing. And immediately everyone stops dancing and looks around uncomfortably. Within a few minutes someone puts the old mix back on.
I think the question/problem is, why does this happen? What's missing? This scenario has actually happened to me, and I think it has its roots in this "groove" conundrum. This gulf does exist. But why?
A lot of this also has to do with familiarity, with the artist as well as with the style. I actually did this once, and yes, it stopped almost everything. Popular so-called dance music from Disco onwards has never actually made me want to dance. That a groove is more than just a good beat is pertinent. For me, the whole band has to be adding to the groove for it to work - it is not just a matter of the rythym section laying it down. The lead instruments, including the vocals, can add to a good groove. But by groove, I do not mean just danceable. It's got to get my head and mind moving as well as my body. Two of my favorite grooves are sections found in extended suites - Echoes by Pink Floyd and Part II of Waves by Jade Warrior.
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
To be fair to the hypothetical "bad guy" in this discussion, I think the "groove" he means is more than just a good beat. Plenty of prog around with that, as we've shown. But I think there's something else they see as missing. Say I'm at a party. A groovy playlist is playing, and everyone's having a good time. I think, "some Crimson would really take this soiree to a new level!" So I put on the groooviest, slinkiest Crim track, a sure thing. And immediately everyone stops dancing and looks around uncomfortably. Within a few minutes someone puts the old mix back on.
I think the question/problem is, why does this happen? What's missing? This scenario has actually happened to me, and I think it has its roots in this "groove" conundrum. This gulf does exist. But why?
You can only dance to music that is completely uniform and predictable (unless you're really good at it or know the song beforehand). Very little prog music fulfills both criteria.
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Posted: October 28 2012 at 20:43
Dayvenkirq wrote:
^ That's right. All you plastic music lovers, eat yer fecking hearts out.
wjohnd wrote:
Soul is such a loose word it is almost meaningless. If it means that it can make you feel deep emotions ... .
OK, I'm pretty sure that we were not talking about the elements of soul in prog, so I don't know any other meaning of the word "soul" that we could have possibly been using in the ongoing discussion. If that blues-rock fanatic meant the elements of soul music, he would say that.
He's a blues rock fanatic, so what else would you expect? In all likelihood, let alone prog, he probably doesn't have time for mostly any European music forms.
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