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Why listen to mediocre prog if you not a collector

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Dayvenkirq View Drop Down
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    Posted: November 09 2012 at 10:20
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

Consider all the other factors that make a masterwork what it is: novelty, the extent of progginess, its historical importance, etc.

None of these have anything to do with "masterpiece" status. If that were the case, I could only give five stars to the usual suspects: Close to the Edge, Thick as a Brick, Foxtrot etc. I don't buy into the notion that an album that had no impact on the prog scene whatsoever can't be a masterpiece.
1) One of the ideas here is to use five stars sparingly, and that's done for a reason. (Can't have so many essentials.) If you really think it's just about the impact, read the rules and guidelines.
2) You have to remember that a masterpiece is essential to prog rock music. Aren't musical power and influence part of that?


Edited by Dayvenkirq - November 09 2012 at 10:23
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HarbouringTheSoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 10:51
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

1) One of the ideas here is to use five stars sparingly, and that's done for a reason.

I use five stars sparingly. There are few albums I love that much.

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

If you really think it's just about the impact, read the rules and guidelines.

I assume by "impact" you mean "enjoyment". Anyway, I have read the rules and guidelines and they say nothing about the matter. They caution against using too many five-star ratings because not every album you enjoy is a masterpiece. But that is compatible with what I'm saying.

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

2) You have to remember that a masterpiece is essential to prog rock music.

Says who? The description for five stars reads "Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music", but that doesn't mean that the album is essential to the genre, it means that the album is essential to the hypothetical listener, i.e. "everyone should hear this". Any prog album I enjoy so immensely that I give it five stars is to my ears essential.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 11:42
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul


Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

If you really think it's just about the impact, read the rules and guidelines.
I assume by "impact" you mean "enjoyment". Anyway, I have read the rules and guidelines and they say nothing about the matter. They caution against using too many five-star ratings because not every album you enjoy is a masterpiece. But that is compatible with what I'm saying.
Whatever you meant by impact.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HarbouringTheSoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 11:51
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul


Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

If you really think it's just about the impact, read the rules and guidelines.
I assume by "impact" you mean "enjoyment". Anyway, I have read the rules and guidelines and they say nothing about the matter. They caution against using too many five-star ratings because not every album you enjoy is a masterpiece. But that is compatible with what I'm saying.
Whatever you meant by impact.

I used the word "impact" in this context: "I don't buy into the notion that an album that had no impact on the prog scene whatsoever can't be a masterpiece." In other words, I think it's precisely not about the impact.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 11:58

^ But impact is only a part of the story, no? 
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

2) You have to remember that a masterpiece is essential to prog rock music.
Says who? The description for five stars reads "Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music, but that doesn't mean that the album is essential to the genre, it means that the album is essential to the hypothetical listener, i.e. "everyone should hear this". Any prog album I enjoy so immensely that I give it five stars is to my ears essential.
Says who? It does not specify what is essential. Ergo, it is open to interpretation. Now, I'm pretty sure that lots of people would disagree with you on this one, ... But then lots of other people would agree.

Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

2) You have to remember that a masterpiece is essential to prog rock music.
Says who? The description for five stars reads "Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music", but that doesn't mean that the album is essential to the genre, it means that the album is essential to the hypothetical listener, i.e. "everyone should hear this". Any prog album I enjoy so immensely that I give it five stars is to my ears essential.

Two different ideas of "essential".


Edited by Dayvenkirq - November 09 2012 at 14:03
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 13:41

Why listen to mediocre prog if you not a collector.'

think this question is needs a ? At the end. Anyway, of course why would you, but what's mediocre to one person is a masterpiece to another. I think we are delving into subjectivity here again .

Again. We are forcing ourselves to quantify music, which is very hard to do on a universal level. We only have our opinions and and suggestions that we can hand out to one another in order to recommend highly regarded music. I think it's great when a vast number of people can agree that an album is an essential masterpiece. It's so very rare, but it does exist. For instance, I'd say that 95% of people on P.A adore GENESIS's SELLING ENGLAND BY THE POUND and a lot of you on this web forum would reccomend that album to a new listener to prog. You know, something to break the ice for the new listener. I would be Inclined to do this myself, but I know it's not always gonna work. An example is that my firend wanted to know more about prog and wanted to get an idea of what a highly regarded, Masterpiece of a prog album would sound like. I started him off with 3 progressive gems (my opinion only.) they were,
1) AQUALUNG -Jethro Tull 2) DARKSIDE OF THE MOON-Pink Floyd and the 3rd one I suggested to diversify things was PARALLELS-Fates Warning, which is a very accessible prog/metal album. Anyway. To my amazement, my friend ended up liking the fates warning the best...by far! Actually, Hated the other 2! All in all my point is that recommending what we think is a masterpiece could very well be a generational thing, which is why it's very hard to quantify music in general. My friend is 32 years old and I through in that Fates album recommendation largely because of his age. It ended up working.   

Also. There were some other points being brought up in this forum about how many Masterpieces some of you felt you owned out of your extensive music collection. This is again subjective, but still very interesting. I would here exact numbers like 30, 45 or even % of how much their music collection are masterpieces. Others have even said in this thread that they even save their masterpiece albums for when the timing is right. I find this so incredibly interesting because this is something I cannot do altogether regarding these points. First of all, when I am really in the mood to listen to a certain album I just go for it! I don't save it. Why torture yourself in that way by listening to something else that is mediocre just because you either haven't listen to it in a while or are building up towards the masterpiece you want to listen to. My point is don't torture yourself!!! If you really want to listen to a particular album that you love as a masterpiece than listen to it! Do it a 100 times if you want. A lot of decerning music heads out there, including myself, will tell you that the reason why we have such large music collections is to fill the void of different parts of our moods. The point being, if you love a certain album and your craving it listen to it at that moment! Your mood could change and the passion could be lost subjecting yourself to mediocre prog in the process to your self. Don't settle for mediocrity!!! It doesn't humble you or help diversify your music tastes. Your just torturing yourself from what you really want to listen to, ultimately taking the joy out of music. Beware of what is mediocre to you and don't give in just becaus should feel you have to. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Neelus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 13:52
Haven't you heard? Masochism is the new popular thing! LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 14:28
Originally posted by Neelus

Haven't you heard? Masochism is the new popular thing! LOL



OUCH! !!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HarbouringTheSoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 15:36
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq


^ But impact is only a part of the story, no?

Sure. But I reject all other parts of the 'story' as well. Nothing but enjoyment for me.

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

2) You have to remember that a masterpiece is essential to prog rock music.
Says who? The description for five stars reads "Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music, but that doesn't mean that the album is essential to the genre, it means that the album is essential to the hypothetical listener, i.e. "everyone should hear this". Any prog album I enjoy so immensely that I give it five stars is to my ears essential.
Says who? It does not specify what is essential. Ergo, it is open to interpretation. Now, I'm pretty sure that lots of people would disagree with you on this one, ... But then lots of other people would agree.

And when you said that a masterpiece is defined by more things than just enjoyment, that was also open for debate. Let's just agree to disagree. Beer

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

2) You have to remember that a masterpiece is essential to prog rock music.
Says who? The description for five stars reads "Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music", but that doesn't mean that the album is essential to the genre, it means that the album is essential to the hypothetical listener, i.e. "everyone should hear this". Any prog album I enjoy so immensely that I give it five stars is to my ears essential.

Two different ideas of "essential".

No, what I mean is that every album that I enjoy enough to give it five stars is also one I would recommend to everybody (maybe not "everyone should hear this" because I don't want to tell other people what to listen to).


Edited by HarbouringTheSoul - November 10 2012 at 06:07
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 20:33
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul


Originally posted by Dayvenkirq




^ But impact is only a part of the story, no?
Sure. But I reject all other parts of the 'story' as well. Nothing but enjoyment for me.
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

2) You have to remember that a masterpiece is essential to prog rock music.
Says who? The description for five stars reads "Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music, but that doesn't mean that the album is essential to the genre, it means that the album is essential to the hypothetical listener, i.e. "everyone should hear this". Any prog album I enjoy so immensely that I give it five stars is to my ears essential.
Says who? It does not specify what is essential. Ergo, it is open to interpretation. Now, I'm pretty sure that lots of people would disagree with you on this one, ... But then lots of other people would agree.
And when you said that a masterpiece is defined by more things than just enjoyment, that was also open for debate. Let's just agree to disagree. Beer
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

2) You have to remember that a masterpiece is essential to prog rock music.
Says who? The description for five stars reads "Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music", but that doesn't mean that the album is essential to the genre, it means that the album is essential to the hypothetical listener, i.e. "everyone should hear this". Any prog album I enjoy so immensely that I give it five stars is to my ears essential.
Two different ideas of "essential".


No, what I mean is that every album that I enjoy enough to give it five stars is also one I would recommend to everybody (maybe not "everyone should hear this" because I don't want to tell other people what to listen to).[/QUOTE]

I tell ya something fellas, FOXTROT is definitely a well deserved FIVER!!! *****
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HarbouringTheSoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2012 at 06:08
Originally posted by progbethyname

I tell ya something fellas, FOXTROT is definitely a well deserved FIVER!!! *****

Good for you. I think I gave it three stars.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2012 at 09:27
Not to be a pain in the a$% (again), but ... 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote My Dreaming Hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2012 at 11:02
I don't want to go back to that topic.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Argonaught Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2012 at 11:37
Originally posted by Guldbamsen

This is what happens when music gets reduced to something quantifiable... 
Imagine if you rated your lover every time you've had sex with her:

"Pretty good dear, but your tongue is currently a bit lifeless, and I could use some more latex in your wardrobe as well. I'll give you 3 stars. Alright 3.5 to be more exact"

* Comment by the "Lover": The ceiling needs a fresh coat of paint


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Prog_Traveller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2012 at 23:49
I agree with the original poster but I'll go one step further. It is a somewhat complicated thing though. I've noticed that many people(regardless of age to some extent)tend to gravitate to newer prog(aside from the obvious bands). In other words people who are sort of new to prog and have recently gotten into Yes, Genesis, KC, ELP etc will then more than likely buy albums by Big Big Train, Airbag, Gazpacho, Glass Hammer, etc before they buy Shylock, Pulsar, Museo Rosenbach or England or whoever.

So basically there seems to be an inclination towards newer prog after the discovery of the most well known bands. I wish I was wrong but I've done a search on here and there is greater number of lesser known artists from the past six years or so than even in the 90's let alone the 70's. Even bands like Spock's Beard or Flower Kings are starting to take a back seat to the newest prog bands out there.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2012 at 06:15
^ The Flower Kings have just produced one of the finest Symphonic prog albums ever IMHO - so no they haven't taken the back seat....and as for mediocre  prog - It's a particular niche surely for those cd's rated around the 3.00 mark which is the middle of the range from 1 TO 5.
I've always hated ratings with too few gradiations - PA should have had at least 10 and personally I'd have gone for a mark between 0 and 100 - the celcius for hot prog music man...100 is the pinnacle - i.e Selling England by the Pound......and 0 is...?? well is anything worth a zero rating?


Edited by M27Barney - November 14 2012 at 06:16
Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Prog_Traveller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2012 at 13:31
There are completists who want to have every album by a band so that would include the mediocre ones too. Prog fans, especially the hardcore ones, tend to be completists. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote desistindo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2012 at 07:54
Originally posted by M27Barney

 and 0 is...?? well is anything worth a zero rating?

maybe the stuff That arent prog at all and has in PA. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote thellama73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2012 at 08:04
Originally posted by desistindo

Originally posted by M27Barney

 and 0 is...?? well is anything worth a zero rating?

maybe the stuff That arent prog at all and has in PA. 


If you put a piece of cardboard on a turntable and set the needle on it at full volume maybe... no, that would still sound pretty good. Probably a solid 2.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2012 at 08:07
Originally posted by desistindo

Originally posted by M27Barney

 and 0 is...?? well is anything worth a zero rating?

maybe the stuff That arent prog at all and has in PA. 
Not on PA. There are some 1-star albums but I've never felt the need of a 0 rating. Out of PA go to a disco and you'll find a lot of 0-stars stuff
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