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Why classic prog faded?

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Gerinski View Drop Down
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    Posted: February 13 2013 at 14:34
Originally posted by aldri7

I read somewhere once where the early punkers thought that all the theatrical rock of the late seventies (bowie, glam, prog, etc) was gay. :) 
Really? why would they think that? LOL


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Post Options Post Options   Quote jude111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2013 at 15:14
Originally posted by aldri7

I read somewhere once where the early punkers thought that all the theatrical rock of the late seventies (bowie, glam, prog, etc) was gay. :) They may have lumped prog in with all this other stuff and dismissed it all as being too effeminate for their tastes. They wanted to return heterosexuality to rock :)
 learned or was not connected to many of these art scenes, is the same thing as saying, we're all naive, and stupid!

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I find it interesting, because the narrative of punk is often couched as a reaction again the overt masculinity of the hair metallers with their long hair, open shirts, hairy chests, fondling and stroking their guitars, and rumors of all kinds of deviant transgressions with groupies backstage. I think you're right, it can be argued that the punkers (not the New Wavers) were putting forth their own kind of hyper masculinity.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote aldri7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2013 at 17:59
Originally posted by jude111

Originally posted by aldri7

I read somewhere once where the early punkers thought that all the theatrical rock of the late seventies (bowie, glam, prog, etc) was gay. :) They may have lumped prog in with all this other stuff and dismissed it all as being too effeminate for their tastes. They wanted to return heterosexuality to rock :)
 learned or was not connected to many of these art scenes, is the same thing as saying, we're all naive, and stupid!

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I find it interesting, because the narrative of punk is often couched as a reaction again the overt masculinity of the hair metallers with their long hair, open shirts, hairy chests, fondling and stroking their guitars, and rumors of all kinds of deviant transgressions with groupies backstage. I think you're right, it can be argued that the punkers (not the New Wavers) were putting forth their own kind of hyper masculinity.

well, this all was on a TV program i saw a while back. Glam metal bands (Motley Crue, Van Halen, Twisted Sister, etc) were kind of like you described.  But they also might have been referred to as "Gay LA metal" because band members adopted the teased hair, makeup etc from glam rock (which was more gay) so that they looked gay even if they were't. But I don't think the punkers liked either one....even if the guys were straight, the way they dressed might have infuriated the punkers even more than if they were actually gay :)

aldri7


Edited by aldri7 - February 13 2013 at 18:03
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Post Options Post Options   Quote twosteves Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2013 at 18:03
Originally posted by aldri7

Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by aldri7

I read somewhere once where the early punkers thought that all the theatrical rock of the late seventies (bowie, glam, prog, etc) was gay. :) They may have lumped prog in with all this other stuff and dismissed it all as being too effeminate for their tastes. They wanted to return heterosexuality to rock :)
...
 

 
A lot of the punk thing, was not about "expression", because many of them do not have any! So to speak. But they also had a great point, in that we were taking for granted everyone else, because we now were looking at everyone that looked gay or bi-sexual ... as being more of an artist ... and thought that anyone else in any art, wasn't good enough ... and rock music, or pop music, are WAYYYYYYYYY bigger a fad ... than just about any other group o artists! Even my sister in Paris, has been had issues with this, by the way!
 
But confusing this with "classical prog" is a bit scary, but to suggest that no one in the prog circles had ever known or learned or was not connected to many of these art scenes, is the same thing as saying, we're all naive, and stupid!

No, I don't deny sexual orientation issues in music (seemed Bowie was pretty open about it). Personally, my ears are color blind and sexual orientation blind. In other words, I don't care. I mean, the music is all that matters. So I'm not suggesting when I say "I don't share their (the punkers) point of view that I disagree that gay culture was a part of the rock scene I'm talking about. I just disagree that anyone should feel that rock "needs" to be heterosexual as opposed to any other orientation.  And since I was never a fan of punk rock (I'm posting here, not on a punk site), clearly if they were putting themselves and their music out there as being better or more legitimate than what they perceived as being "gay" rock, then I'd have a problem with that :)

On the other hand, if the theatrical rock music suffers at the expense of costumes, makeup, overblown stage shows etc, or maybe it doesn't suffer but just isn't as inspired as it could be, then any attitude that comes with it to the effect that gay's are artists and everyone else isn't good enough - well, I vote with my ears. 

aldri7

I live in NYC--I work in show biz in an arty field--I have met many gay people of all ages---not one has ever heard of  Yes, KC, GG or knew what prog wasLOL  And I've yet to go to a Steve Hackett concert and seen a group of Lady Gaga fans---Prog has always been associated with smart people and people who like classical, jazz and other types of music that challenge the mind--I think the world began to react to everything and by the 80's --was just getting dumber and simpler and the music has reflected that---
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Post Options Post Options   Quote aldri7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2013 at 18:27
Originally posted by twosteves

 


I live in NYC--I work in show biz in an arty field--I have met many gay people of all ages---not one has ever heard of  Yes, KC, GG or knew what prog wasLOL  And I've yet to go to a Steve Hackett concert and seen a group of Lady Gaga fans---Prog has always been associated with smart people and people who like classical, jazz and other types of music that challenge the mind--I think the world began to react to everything and by the 80's --was just getting dumber and simpler and the music has reflected that---

I wouldn't say there is any correlation between sexual orientation and prog and their fans. But to a punker (teenager in the late 70's maybe), who knows what they thought. Appearances alone might have been enough to cause them to make judgements...

Anyway, good music and appearances likewise show no correlation. :) And the punkers influence on the demise of classic prog is probably not worth discussing much. Classic prog was fading anyway, was degenerating into simpler but still theatrical music, and the theatrics was like candy for the brain rather than real sustenance. its a hell of a lot easier to look cool than to sound cool....

aldri7


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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2013 at 14:29
Originally posted by aldri7

 
I wouldn't say there is any correlation between sexual orientation and prog and their fans. But to a punker (teenager in the late 70's maybe), who knows what they thought. Appearances alone might have been enough to cause them to make judgements...
...
 
 
There shouldn't be, either ... but in the end, too many of these are just a media thing, and not talking about that and keeping it quiet is better than saying anything and losing the sales potential.
 
In general, the world of progressive music has not discussed, or needed to, the person's orientation ... which is not something that America is capable of doing when you look at the magazine stand covers and headlines!
 
American media and folks still use the Scarlet Letter ... and it is bigger than ever!  But there is a HUGE difference that you are missing ... in NY, being gay is no big deal if you sell 75K cd's ... you become a "hit" ... but in Pukeahola, N Dakota, or Blahdewhatever in Utah ... this won't get a single listen! And if it does, there will be 10 parents screaming!
 
But ugliness is a strange thing ... and sometimes it goes much further than music ... that recent example in soccer ... is one of the saddest things I have ever seen in my whole life!


Edited by moshkito - February 16 2013 at 14:34
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Post Options Post Options   Quote FenderX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2013 at 04:43
It is too complex for most of the people as it is very different and strange. Perhaps more people liked it because modern pop or dub step wouldn't exist and those are some very simple genres that almost every simple man would like.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote snipingpanda14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2013 at 10:57
Rock was getting more and more testosterone fueled. Nobody wanted to see an effeminate rock star dress up like a sunflower or a fox in a dress. Then there was punk, and music critics started to lean towards 3 chords, 3 minutes, 4/4 songs. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2013 at 11:19
Maybe it was Dolly Parton's secret cover of Easy Money that did the trick...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote chamberry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2013 at 12:31
Because it had to? The times where changing and I guess some things needed to be forgotten. Still new bands popped in every corner that incorporate prog rock things into their music, which made things more interesting. 

Every genre needs to die, it's not a bad thing, really. There's always something new hidden behind the next corner.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2013 at 12:37
Originally posted by chamberry

Because it had to? The times where changing and I guess some things needed to be forgotten. Still new bands popped in every corner that incorporate prog rock things into their music, which made things more interesting. 

Every genre needs to die, it's not a bad thing, really. There's always something new hidden behind the next corner.


Completely beside any points you've made, I just gotta say thanks for turning me onto Circle. It was your reviews that did it. 
Haven't seen you around the forums, so I just thought I'd say it now that I have a chance.
Cheers!
David
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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2013 at 13:52
Originally posted by snipingpanda14

Rock was getting more and more testosterone fueled. Nobody wanted to see an effeminate rock star dress up like a sunflower or a fox in a dress. Then there was punk, and music critics started to lean towards 3 chords, 3 minutes, 4/4 songs. 
 
And this is where, most of us, have to draw the line and close the book ... and we didn't, because we were too comfortable following the top ten ... at the same time, many of us were kissing up to Fleetwood Mac ... and that was the same thing as the rest of the popular circuit.
 
All in all, the age of individuality was killed ... this is what the 60's were fighting for ... the individualistic design and artistic work ... but most folks quit and gave up ... and became just a mirror of something they were not. There are 3 ladies I still know from those days, and if I was to write it, or mention it some of the words they use these days ... and you can see ... their dreams died ... and I have, at the very least ... realized that the dream was just a dream, and I'm not bitter about it, because that was the dream that taught me ... and the internal trip and learning and writing I do, has become my solace and heaven ... that those people never learned or followed in their life ... they did not believe in anything except what made sense for them ... but the sadness and anger in teir words ... is ... not pretty at all ... there is no grace, there is no love, there is no beauty ... there is no appreciation for anything ... it was all wrong ... and that kind of thing.
 
Classic Prog never died or faded ... it just was no longer heard by people that never had an ear for anything except top ten anyway ... and this is still the case today ... just do a cursory listen of 15 minutes in 10 different "progressive" stations on the internet ... and you will hear the same beat in at least half of all those minutes ... and that specifies to you that people have lost the ability to know what the inside and individual is all about ... they can only echo the popularity of things and the top ten ... and that road, will rarely lead you to the land of the great artists, you would have wanted to spend your time with, but never did! And never learned the difference!
 
Today's kids are trying ... no worries there ... but when someone tells them you have to look inside for what they can find, they look at you and wonder what you are saying ... meaning that they are so disconnected from that inner world that we lived at and fought for, that their ability to do something as good as what we heard, is not likely to happen ... it might be totally different, but it won't have the idealistic care, love, attention and detail, that the work our generation had was responsible for.
 
I do not believe that you can do what was done, by kissing the establishment, regardless of who they are ... and in so many ways, this echoes a writer that I love reading quite often ... Doris Lessing -- a woman, no less! -- saying that the country that has the most freedoms, doesn't use them!
 
And guess what we got here? ... too much freedom, and now we count freedom as just having toys and CD's! It has nothing to do with the music and the place, and the time, and the people anymore! I'm not a collector of music and CD's or LP's ... or waste time in ProgArchives ... to me, this is my life's work, and the CD's the LP's and the books and everything else are my records of it. Did you, or anyone you know, ever, think of life that way? I have my bits and pieces, but in general, from my posts you know there is a lot more ... and it will never fade ... and I came from that day ... so what makes you think that KC will fade? or ELP? ... they won't! Because folks like you, won't allow it to happen ... they meant to much to our life to be ignored and is the reason why they are remembered!


Edited by moshkito - March 02 2013 at 14:00
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2013 at 20:52
All in all, the age of individuality was killed ... this is what the 60's were fighting for ... the individualistic design and artistic work ... but most folks quit and gave up ... and became just a mirror of something they were not. There are 3 ladies I still know from those days, and if I was to write it, or mention it some of the words they use these days ... and you can see ... their dreams died ... and I have, at the very least ... realized that the dream was just a dream, and I'm not bitter about it, because that was the dream that taught me ... and the internal trip and learning and writing I do, has become my solace and heaven ... that those people never learned or followed in their life ... they did not believe in anything except what made sense for them ... but the sadness and anger in teir words ... is ... not pretty at all ... there is no grace, there is no love, there is no beauty ... there is no appreciation for anything ... it was all wrong ... and that kind of thing.
 
Classic Prog never died or faded ... it just was no longer heard by people that never had an ear for anything except top ten anyway ... and this is still the case today ... just do a cursory listen of 15 minutes in 10 different "progressive" stations on the internet ... and you will hear the same beat in at least half of all those minutes ... and that specifies to you that people have lost the ability to know what the inside and individual is all about ... they can only echo the popularity of things and the top ten ... and that road, will rarely lead you to the land of the great artists, you would have wanted to spend your time with, but never did! And never learned the difference!
 
Today's kids are trying ... no worries there ... but when someone tells them you have to look inside for what they can find, they look at you and wonder what you are saying ... meaning that they are so disconnected from that inner world that we lived at and fought for, that their ability to do something as good as what we heard, is not likely to happen ... it might be totally different, but it won't have the idealistic care, love, attention and detail, that the work our generation had was responsible for.


What an amazingly insightful well thought out post.
Thank you.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2013 at 20:57
Why do you think everyone quit on seeking creative individuality?

Most all my friends quit thinking for themselves.  I have a lot less real friends these days.  I am so bored with them now.
Everyone took the red pill.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Larree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2013 at 21:10
Peter Gabriel left Genesis and Genesis became a pop band.  Punk, Disco, and Bruce Springstein happened.  And then video killed the radio star.  Game over.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2013 at 21:25
Originally posted by richardh

Rush have a fascinating history that to their credit was never just about their seventies albums when you compare them to other bands such as Yes , Genesis and ELP who didn't retain the same intensity and level of artistic merit that Rush had in that God forsaken decade called the eighties. In general I prefer the sleak streamlined and often powerfull approach they had from Permanent Waves to Power Windows compared to their seventies stuff when they were seemingly trying to be a heavier guitar based version of ELP,Yes and Genesis rolled into one. 2112 is quite fun at times and I would concede Farewell To KIngs is a masterpeice but I am nowhere near as keen on Hemispheres (excepting the wonderful La Villa Strangiato). I would strongly argue that Rush best period was 1980 to 1985. After that they made two more outstanding albums (Counterparts and Vapor Trails) but I digress.

Rush were one of those band that actually benefited from the demise of classic prog as it allowed then to truly become themselves and stop trying so hard to be a 'prog band' .Some bands need that. The problem was that there were few other bands as good as Rush. Possibly some gave up during the carnage of the punk era. Could being Canadian have helped them? Was there actually a punk scene in Canada??!






I could not disagree more.

More tracks and slicker production does not make the songs more interesting.  Geddy is not a keyboardist in the way he is a bassist.  They admitted that they gave up on pursuing huge epic works like Hemispheres and 2112.  That was the stuff that made them great.  Huge ambition and they pulled it off.   The 80 stuff is just an eye roll.  Poppy, simpler songs shrouded in 46 keyboard tracks, midi sequencers and so on.  Rush was a their best playing their instruments in real time, Geddy singing, playing bass, working the Tauras pedals.. Neil with his elaborate accoustic kit... playing every note.. not hitting sample pads and triggers.  That stuff is for other less talented bands to be doing.  Alex playing his guitar and developing his sound on every album. 

They went from keeping it real and delivering to midi and faking way too much stuff.

They still play the old stuff live very well..

What is disappointing is that they don't write in the abitious style anymore. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2013 at 21:28
Gabriel left and Genesis did "Trick of the Tail" and "Wind and Wuthering".  "Seconds Out".  They went pop when Hackett left.

Gabriel did a lot of very interesting stuff on his early solo albums.  A few pop songs in the 80's but even those albums had some serious depth to them.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Larree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2013 at 21:30
Originally posted by Surrealist

Gabriel left and Genesis did "Trick of the Tail" and "Wind and Wuthering".  "Seconds Out".  They went pop when Hackett left.

Gabriel did a lot of very interesting stuff on his early solo albums.  A few pop songs in the 80's but even those albums had some serious depth to them.



I saw Selling England and Lamb Lies Down live.  Then I saw Trick.  They were a pop band when I saw them do Trick.


Edited by Larree - March 30 2013 at 21:47
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Post Options Post Options   Quote KingCrInuYasha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2013 at 21:57
Originally posted by Surrealist

Originally posted by richardh

Rush have a fascinating history that to their credit was never just about their seventies albums when you compare them to other bands such as Yes , Genesis and ELP who didn't retain the same intensity and level of artistic merit that Rush had in that God forsaken decade called the eighties. In general I prefer the sleak streamlined and often powerfull approach they had from Permanent Waves to Power Windows compared to their seventies stuff when they were seemingly trying to be a heavier guitar based version of ELP,Yes and Genesis rolled into one. 2112 is quite fun at times and I would concede Farewell To KIngs is a masterpeice but I am nowhere near as keen on Hemispheres (excepting the wonderful La Villa Strangiato). I would strongly argue that Rush best period was 1980 to 1985. After that they made two more outstanding albums (Counterparts and Vapor Trails) but I digress.

Rush were one of those band that actually benefited from the demise of classic prog as it allowed then to truly become themselves and stop trying so hard to be a 'prog band' .Some bands need that. The problem was that there were few other bands as good as Rush. Possibly some gave up during the carnage of the punk era. Could being Canadian have helped them? Was there actually a punk scene in Canada??!






I could not disagree more.

More tracks and slicker production does not make the songs more interesting.  Geddy is not a keyboardist in the way he is a bassist.  They admitted that they gave up on pursuing huge epic works like Hemispheres and 2112.  That was the stuff that made them great.  Huge ambition and they pulled it off.   The 80 stuff is just an eye roll.  Poppy, simpler songs shrouded in 46 keyboard tracks, midi sequencers and so on.  Rush was a their best playing their instruments in real time, Geddy singing, playing bass, working the Tauras pedals.. Neil with his elaborate accoustic kit... playing every note.. not hitting sample pads and triggers.  That stuff is for other less talented bands to be doing.  Alex playing his guitar and developing his sound on every album. 

They went from keeping it real and delivering to midi and faking way too much stuff.

They still play the old stuff live very well..

What is disappointing is that they don't write in the abitious style anymore. 



I'm sorry, but I heavily disagree that they were it faking it, at least where Permanent Waves, Moving Pictures and Signals are concerned.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2013 at 00:46
Funny stuff... Trick being a pop record!  but I can certainly see your point.... if your frame of reference were Can Utility and the Coastliners.

I can only wish a new Prog Band would come out with a recording like that. 

One thing that separated the top Prog bands from rock bands was their ability to play complex music live.  While this might seem obvious now.. it might likely be lost on this generation.  Kids can make all kinds of complex music on a computer with lots of copy and paste and digital manipulation.  So now.. the "WOW" factor is pretty much gone.

I really wish the whole digital music thing didn't happen for another 50 or 100 years or maybe never. 

We recorded all our records on tape machines early on.. but switched to digital over the last decade or so. 
Now we are back on tape machines because we were spending way too much time on a computer trying to manipulate stuff or trying to fix things that really didn't need fixing.  The bar has been raised so high for production values that it has stripped a lot of the feel and humanity from a recording.  So in our new studio.. NO COMPUTERS ALLOWED.  Not even a smart phone.  No automated board.. just tape reels, and a board.  We are not even using outboard gear from the board other than a couple very basic things like a couple compressors.  What this is doing to us is forcing us to play better, spend more time practicing our instruments and developing the sounds from our instruments and gear so that when it goes down onto tape.. it is done.  That is our sound.  We are not recording dry and then trying to find a sound from a bank of samples or plug ins.  This changes one's approach and consciousness about making music.  It's a much more organic and creative process because the limitations actually force you to be more resourceful and play better.  And believe it or not.. when you are playing better, you tend to be more inspired and creative also.
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