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Why classic prog faded?

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Neelus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neelus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 13:41
Dean...WOW video...seriously
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 13:52
Classic Prog has faded because music is strongly a generational thing altogether. I know this for a fact because of certain recommendations I've given friends, who differ in age considerably.
Threshold still have all the goods that makes them one of the best classic rock/Prog metal bands in the world. 2014's For The Journey is worth a serious listen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silverpot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 14:00
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

[QUOTE


Prog faded for many reasons, all of them valid.
 
Music is sold mainly to teenagers and Prog in the 70s was no different. As teenagers grow older their priorities change - they get jobs and get married and take on responsibilities of careers, mortgages and providing for their families - their interest in the latest music wains. They are replaced by the next generation of teenagers, who have their own musical interests.
 
Most popular music is made by the younger generation for the younger generation - we listened to Yes and Genesis because they were of our generation - we didn't listen to the music of our parents or elder siblings. The new generation does not want the hand-me-downs of the previous generation, they want the new music made by the artists of their generation.
 
It is the role of the older generation to "rubbish" the music of the younger generation. Our parents did it to our music and we do it to our kid's music - that is the way it must be. We are, however, permitted to skip a generation and venerate the music of older generations, such as the Punks did with the music of The Velvet Underground and the MC5s.
 
The music business wants to sell to the demographic with the most disposable income, they want to sell to the new generation of teenagers because the older generation has stopped buying - they will inevitably invest more in the artists that appeal more to the new generation. The people who made Prog music are no longer saleable items, the younger bands who persist in making Prog music do not get signed (only a small fraction of the English Neo-Prog movement of the early 80s ever got record deals - bands like Jadis, Mach One, Haze, LaHost, Quasar struggle on self-released cassettes).
 
The music press wants to sell music newspapers and magazines, and the people who buy them will be the new generation with their new music - it is inevitable they will support the newer artists with their new music. The journalists whoo write for those papers quickly jump upon the latest bandwagon and discard the older generation of music.
 
Some of the older generation of musicians would like to maintain a living, so will adopt some of the latest trends in order to stay viable, while others will adapt their music to the different buying trends of their old fans. Jon Anderson cuts his hair and swaps kaftan for a Don Johnson/Miami Vice pastel suit, Phil Collins shaves his beard and becomes a pop star. 
 
Prog faded because the people who buy music stopped buying it.
[/QUOTE]

Amen to that.
Certainly true for me. I got so busy with life in the eighties, I stopped listening to new music. It's only now, in my mature age, that I've started to pick up the threads again.
And what a wonderful time we live in, with this interweb, everything is served on a silver platter. A forum like this, Youtube and Spotify, wow! 
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silverpot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 14:02
Sorry Dean for my sh*tty quoting. Forgot to preview. Embarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 14:12
Originally posted by Neelus Neelus wrote:

Dean...WOW video...seriously
try this one (I'll not post it directly it, this isn't the place for that)


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 14:22
Originally posted by silverpot silverpot wrote:


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

[QUOTE

Prog faded for many reasons, all of them valid.

 

Music is sold mainly to teenagers and Prog in the 70s was no different. As teenagers grow older their priorities change - they get jobs and get married and take on responsibilities of careers, mortgages and providing for their families - their interest in the latest music wains. They are replaced by the next generation of teenagers, who have their own musical interests.

 

Most popular music is made by the younger generation for the younger generation - we listened to Yes and Genesis because they were of our generation - we didn't listen to the music of our parents or elder siblings. The new generation does not want the hand-me-downs of the previous generation, they want the new music made by the artists of their generation.

 

It is the role of the older generation to "rubbish" the music of the younger generation. Our parents did it to our music and we do it to our kid's music - that is the way it must be. We are, however, permitted to skip a generation and venerate the music of older generations, such as the Punks did with the music of The Velvet Underground and the MC5s.

 

The music business wants to sell to the demographic with the most disposable income, they want to sell to the new generation of teenagers because the older generation has stopped buying - they will inevitably invest more in the artists that appeal more to the new generation. The people who made Prog music are no longer saleable items, the younger bands who persist in making Prog music do not get signed (only a small fraction of the English Neo-Prog movement of the early 80s ever got record deals - bands like Jadis, Mach One, Haze, LaHost, Quasar struggle on self-released cassettes).

 

The music press wants to sell music newspapers and magazines, and the people who buy them will be the new generation with their new music - it is inevitable they will support the newer artists with their new music. The journalists whoo write for those papers quickly jump upon the latest bandwagon and discard the older generation of music.

 

Some of the older generation of musicians would like to maintain a living, so will adopt some of the latest trends in order to stay viable, while others will adapt their music to the different buying trends of their old fans. Jon Anderson cuts his hair and swaps kaftan for a Don Johnson/Miami Vice pastel suit, Phil Collins shaves his beard and becomes a pop star. 

 

Prog faded because the people who buy music stopped buying it.
Amen to that.Certainly true for me. I got so busy with life in the eighties, I stopped listening to new music. It's only now, in my mature age, that I've started to pick up the threads again. And what a wonderful time we live in, with this interweb, everything is served on a silver platter. A forum like this, Youtube and Spotify, wow!   [/QUOTE]

extremely well said. You touch upon the generational point so well by how CLASSIC prog has faded because of the change in music values from a consumer and artist point of view. Very well said. Anyway, I'm glad you in particular don't forget your music roots and are coming back to them. Happy listening to you kind sir!!

Also. I will never forget my music base Roots either. It's inspiring what you have said.
Threshold still have all the goods that makes them one of the best classic rock/Prog metal bands in the world. 2014's For The Journey is worth a serious listen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 15:19
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ He said "a great album in the '80s", not ... "an album in the '80s".

 

indeedLOL

 

The bands that made prog recognisable simply got old and the bands that should have replaced them were largely ignored after punk. Be Bop Deluxe and Lone Star were two interesting bands that just stopped around 1978 for commercial reasons yet had made some really interesting music. Coloseum 2 were another example. ELP,Yes and Genesis just didn't evolve at all and very few people believe there later albums get close to their earlier albums. Therefore the writing was on the wall regardless of punk happening or not. The baton was never passed on.
I think GENESIS evolved immensely. As the 80's loomed forth GENESIS ushered in a new and fresh sound by blending pop and prog together. I said it once and I'll say it again, DUKE is a masterpiece because it shows the promising evolution of GENESIS all together. In my opinion, GENESIS evolved greatly


actually I'm very fond of Genesis in that immediate post Gabriel era inc up to Duke. I nearly cried when I first heard Abacab and hated Mama.

The thread title is about classic prog and Duke is rarely thought of as that. It was even the butt of a joke in the film American Psycho where Christian Bale's character hales it as their masterpeice. I can't help but sn****r a little. (sorryWink)


I remember that part in American Psycho!! Laughed my head off! I believed he used the words intense or trancedental meditation to describe DUKE. lol. Anyway. I love Duke and will always defend its honor, but that was a cracking good joke!!!
Threshold still have all the goods that makes them one of the best classic rock/Prog metal bands in the world. 2014's For The Journey is worth a serious listen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 15:30
Originally posted by Nov Nov wrote:


Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

Genesis - GenesisI think all three of those albums were released in 1980.  So technically they were probably written in the 70's!
Nonsense.
It was released in 1983 and none of it was written in the 70s.
Quote Genesis of course fell apart
Confused
Fell apart? During the 80s they became one of the biggest bands on the planet.
There are some very strange mis-conceptions about Genesis in this thread.


Yup. Misconceptions Indeed
Threshold still have all the goods that makes them one of the best classic rock/Prog metal bands in the world. 2014's For The Journey is worth a serious listen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HarbouringTheSoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 15:38
I loved that part in American Psycho. Literally couldn't stop laughing for a minute. Great movie. And great album, too!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 16:28
I have found this thread only now that there are already 4 pages of comments. If you look at what happened worldwide in the same period not only in music, I think it all has a single name: restoration. 

It's well known that, especially the western world, is heavily influenced by the big finance and the so-called hidden power. Look today: The European Bank director, the Italian and Greek premiers were all in a period of their lives on Goldman Sachs books. 

Back to about 1974 now. It'sw more or less when the great impulse to freedom in general and maily in costumes was naturally decreasing in intensity, but in the same time in all the aspects of our lives media and politics gave start to a worldwide campaign for standardisation. Punk was just an episode, probably out of control, but the disco first (Saturday Night Fever was a milestone) and mainly the 80s were in some way "imposed". 

I remember people looking for "modern sounds" meaning the Yamaha DX7 or the Fairlight, and classic bands like Genesis, Camel and Yes trying to adapt themselves to those sounds (with different results). Also the Pink Floyd started using 4/4 with The Wall. Another brick but mainly Run Like Hell are "disco friendly".

There wasn't internet yet and indies didn't have the possibility of being known. Things like MTV didn't kill the radio star but gave a big contribution to the standardisation also in terms of look and dressing. 
I believe also that the great diffusion of hard drugs like heroin had something to do with restoration. It was the easiest and more remunerative tool to transform the summer of love into a winter of death.

Classic prog faded because everything was coming from the 60s faded in the same way. 
Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 21:18
But if it was actually sustained by drugs, then it was probably not very sustainable at all.   So that means prog was simply the soundtrack to a freewheeling generation...which makes sense, because the 70s were the only period in which prog (rather, some prog) was popular.  

By the way, Mastodon's The Hunter reached no.10 on the Billboards last year so it's not as if the industry's mission to standardize culture has entirely succeeded.  Dean made an elaborate post about the impact of digital media in freeing musicians from the industry's stranglehold.  So now people get to choose what they want to hear but that also means it's much harder for an album to go platinum.  

     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2012 at 18:36
Originally posted by Prog_Traveller Prog_Traveller wrote:


Originally posted by mister nobody mister nobody wrote:

Well, people got bored of it, I think.
There's that. More specifically, the wrong people got bored of it(ie music critics and music industry execs).

Exactly this, I think. It was the music critics and music industy execs who were bored with it. Progressive rock was still pretty popular around Buffalo, NY in the 80s. It was in the 80s that "Genesis Rael", for instance, got spray painted on a building near our school (and no, it wasn't me). There wasn't a lack of interest in Prog here, only a lack of product. To the extent that there still was stuff on the market (Frank Zappa, Pink Floyd, Peter Gabriel, Rush, Marillion) it was well supported there in the 80s. So from our perspective it seemed as though the music industry was just not responsive to us. I'm not sure how to characterize other regions. The common narrative that punk rock pushed Prog aside is a head scratcher for me because punk never caught on in the least bit, I don't think anywhere in the US. It was always just a British thing. I also don't get the notion bandied about that teens aren't interested in the music of their older siblings. For myself and everyone I grew up with, we always wanted to be more adult. No, it wasn't lack of interest or changing interests. It was those with the stranglehold on the record deals that were the agents of change.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2012 at 19:58
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

. I also don't get the notion bandied about that teens aren't interested in the music of their older siblings. For myself and everyone I grew up with, we always wanted to be more adult. No, it wasn't lack of interest or changing interests. It was those with the stranglehold on the record deals that were the agents of change.
I didn't say they weren't interested in the music of their older siblings, I said they wanted the new music made by the artists of their generation. Of course this is difficult to prove or demonstrate, especially since 40 years later we tend to see "the 70s" as one single time period when in reality it wasn't, and that Prog was the dominant music force when in reality it wasn't.
 
I bought Voyage of the Acolyte when it was released - I was 18 at the time - if you were my 9 year old brother would you have listened to it then in 1975? (I'd be impressed if you did, but slightly annoyed as that would make the rest of this paragraphy pretty meaningless). Or did you first hear it when you were 14? or when you were 18? or even later? And when you did first listen to it (whenever that was) do you think you would have been interested in listening to the music I would have been listening to at that time? If you were 17 then I would have been 26 - still an avid music fan and record collector, but now living in an expensive rented flat in London while desperately saving for the deposit on my own house - I bought exactly 5 albums in that year - 2 of them were Prog.
 
I also have to ask what drives the record labels to become the agents of change - if they already had a fatted calf then why kill it off? While the record labels do actively go looking for new talent, that is a gamble for them, they would prefer to keep making money on the "dead certs" that have sold well in the past. Labels do not start new trends in music, they follow them.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2012 at 20:13
It's very hard to play.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prog_Traveller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2012 at 00:50
^ He said "a great album in the '80s", not ... "an album in the '80s".





No kidding. And you think my choices are worse than the self titled Genesis album from 1983? Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prog_Traveller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2012 at 00:55
Originally posted by Nov Nov wrote:

Originally posted by Prog_Traveller Prog_Traveller wrote:

Gabriel's "superman" costume(and others), 
Do you mean "Slipperman" costume?





Maybe. Smile


If that's the one that looks like a giant mutated turnip then yeah. Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2012 at 00:56
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

. I also don't get the notion bandied about that teens aren't interested in the music of their older siblings. For myself and everyone I grew up with, we always wanted to be more adult. No, it wasn't lack of interest or changing interests. It was those with the stranglehold on the record deals that were the agents of change.

I didn't say they weren't interested in the music of their older siblings, I said they wanted the new music made by the artists of their generation. Of course this is difficult to prove or demonstrate, especially since 40 years later we tend to see "the 70s" as one single time period when in reality it wasn't, and that Prog was the dominant music force when in reality it wasn't.

 

I bought Voyage of the Acolyte when it was released - I was 18 at the time - if you were my 9 year old brother would you have listened to it then in 1975? (I'd be impressed if you did, but slightly annoyed as that would make the rest of this paragraphy pretty meaningless). Or did you first hear it when you were 14? or when you were 18? or even later? And when you did first listen to it (whenever that was) do you think you would have been interested in listening to the music I would have been listening to at that time? If you were 17 then I would have been 26 - still an avid music fan and record collector, but now living in an expensive rented flat in London while desperately saving for the deposit on my own house - I bought exactly 5 albums in that year - 2 of them were Prog.

 

I also have to ask what drives the record labels to become the agents of change - if they already had a fatted calf then why kill it off? While the record labels do actively go looking for new talent, that is a gamble for them, they would prefer to keep making money on the "dead certs" that have sold well in the past. Labels do not start new trends in music, they follow them.

I take your distinction, Dean. But I have to testify otherwise. I listened very little to music from musicians of my own generation. The only artists I went to see live in highschool were at big venues. Most of the big artists playing big venues were older simply because they had to be somewhat well initiated to make it to a big venue. I saw Genesis, Jethro Tull, and Van Halen in highschool. Even Van Halen were quite a bit older than me. I had a friend in highschool who was big into Yes, and I think he saw them live. I knew others who went to see the Moody Blues. Later while I was college one of the dominant radio platforms in the 80s was regurgitated 60s and 70s classics. During this period I distinctly remember young teenagers scouring through, not their older sibling's records, but their parents'.

I was indeed 9 in 1975. Good guess. I hadn't discovered Voyage of the Acolyte until I was much much older. I did have a friend my age who bought the Lamb Lies Down on Broadway and played it for me when it first came out. He was admittedly pretty hip about music for his age. By the time I was 17 or 18 I was partying around bonfires with my friend's older brothers and sisters. They played lots of Zeppelin and Tull, and some occasional miscellaneous Prog and folk rock. I went as a group with them twice to see Shawn Phillips. There could be a cultural difference, but I always regarded older people as just plain cooler. They could drive. They could drink. And they had seen Steve Hackett live way before I did. I would certainly have been interested in what you were listening to during a good portion of my youth. And now too.

As far as the music industry goes I really don't perceive them as simply reflecting what people want. I think they mould and shape popular music more than any underground scene does. I can't prove this. It's just my perception. Admittedly, I might have been influenced by having read too many Robert Fripp interviews.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2012 at 01:02
About the influence of the industry on music, new wave for instance wasn't necessarily something they shaped and pushed heavily to 'replace' prog.  Sparks had anticipated many aspects of new wave as early as 1973/74 and ABBA too emulated some of these aspects.   By the mid 70s, the industry was ready to sign on new bands playing in what would come to be known as the new wave style.   When the industry exerts its influence, it is typically in a conservative light, as in promoting divas in the late 80s and 90s.  It seems to take time for the industry to accept a new sound and understand that it might have a bigger audience than they believe it does.  Metallica was the biggest rock band of the 90s, I guess, and they had released four albums before they were kind of persuaded to streamline their sound for a larger audience.  In fact, they went to the Grammys in 1988 with arguably their most ambitious album, And Justice for All.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2012 at 02:07
Originally posted by Prog_Traveller Prog_Traveller wrote:

No kidding. And you think my choices are worse than the self titled Genesis album from 1983? Confused
Confused ... That's not what I said AT ALL! I said "... he said 'a great album in the 80's', not 'an album in the 80's'." As far as I can see, "Yes 90125 and Drama" and "a few more by Rush and Emerson Lake and Powell" are not widely regarded as "great albums".

Edited by Dayvenkirq - November 11 2012 at 02:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2012 at 05:48
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

. I also don't get the notion bandied about that teens aren't interested in the music of their older siblings. For myself and everyone I grew up with, we always wanted to be more adult. No, it wasn't lack of interest or changing interests. It was those with the stranglehold on the record deals that were the agents of change.

I didn't say they weren't interested in the music of their older siblings, I said they wanted the new music made by the artists of their generation. Of course this is difficult to prove or demonstrate, especially since 40 years later we tend to see "the 70s" as one single time period when in reality it wasn't, and that Prog was the dominant music force when in reality it wasn't.

 

I bought Voyage of the Acolyte when it was released - I was 18 at the time - if you were my 9 year old brother would you have listened to it then in 1975? (I'd be impressed if you did, but slightly annoyed as that would make the rest of this paragraphy pretty meaningless). Or did you first hear it when you were 14? or when you were 18? or even later? And when you did first listen to it (whenever that was) do you think you would have been interested in listening to the music I would have been listening to at that time? If you were 17 then I would have been 26 - still an avid music fan and record collector, but now living in an expensive rented flat in London while desperately saving for the deposit on my own house - I bought exactly 5 albums in that year - 2 of them were Prog.

 

I also have to ask what drives the record labels to become the agents of change - if they already had a fatted calf then why kill it off? While the record labels do actively go looking for new talent, that is a gamble for them, they would prefer to keep making money on the "dead certs" that have sold well in the past. Labels do not start new trends in music, they follow them.

I take your distinction, Dean. But I have to testify otherwise. I listened very little to music from musicians of my own generation. The only artists I went to see live in highschool were at big venues. Most of the big artists playing big venues were older simply because they had to be somewhat well initiated to make it to a big venue. I saw Genesis, Jethro Tull, and Van Halen in highschool. Even Van Halen were quite a bit older than me. I had a friend in highschool who was big into Yes, and I think he saw them live. I knew others who went to see the Moody Blues. Later while I was college one of the dominant radio platforms in the 80s was regurgitated 60s and 70s classics. During this period I distinctly remember young teenagers scouring through, not their older sibling's records, but their parents'.

I was indeed 9 in 1975. Good guess. I hadn't discovered Voyage of the Acolyte until I was much much older. I did have a friend my age who bought the Lamb Lies Down on Broadway and played it for me when it first came out. He was admittedly pretty hip about music for his age. By the time I was 17 or 18 I was partying around bonfires with my friend's older brothers and sisters. They played lots of Zeppelin and Tull, and some occasional miscellaneous Prog and folk rock. I went as a group with them twice to see Shawn Phillips. There could be a cultural difference, but I always regarded older people as just plain cooler. They could drive. They could drink. And they had seen Steve Hackett live way before I did. I would certainly have been interested in what you were listening to during a good portion of my youth. And now too.

As far as the music industry goes I really don't perceive them as simply reflecting what people want. I think they mould and shape popular music more than any underground scene does. I can't prove this. It's just my perception. Admittedly, I might have been influenced by having read too many Robert Fripp interviews.
Then I'd say you were the exception rather than the rule (or rather the exception does not disprove the rule), in my experience the musical taste of teenagers is influence more by their peers than their elders. If we were all influenced by our elders then musical styles would never change and we'd still be listening to Glenn Miller (okay, that's a gross exageration, but you get my drift). Even Neo-Prog was a generation thing - in the 80s old Proggers treated Marillion with distain (Genesis clone tag started then and persists today) and Marillion fans at then time were very unreceptive to Peter Hammill when he supported them.
 
Record labels picked-up on emergent trends, such as Punk, New Wave, Thrash, Grunge, Nu Metal, etc..they did not create them - in every case they were either reluctant or slow to pick them up, but once it seemed they could make money out of them there was a feeding frenzy in signing new bands.


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman
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