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Why classic prog faded?

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Neelus View Drop Down
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    Posted: November 07 2012 at 16:16
Looking at the latter part of the seventies. We all know Gabriel's costumes got bigger.  The ELP crew got enormous.  The bigger the show, the better.  
Did the evolve from musical experimentalism into overblown stage antics during this period cause prog's demise against the punk movement?
Why would the huge show that never ends fail? Were there other factors involved that ended classic prog?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Earthmover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2012 at 16:28
Well, people got bored of it, I think.
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Failcore View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Failcore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2012 at 16:37
Because prog wasn't a genre of music then really, it was just a gimmick rock musicians were trying out to in order sell records and as soon as it quit selling, they moved on. I'm not saying there wasn't talent or there's no good classic prog, but lets call a spade a spade here.

Edited by Failcore - November 07 2012 at 16:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sumdeus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2012 at 16:39
It's normal for musicians to stop being as ambitious and interesting as they get more comfortably snug in fame and wealth. it's also normal for musicians to just run out of steam and ideas as time goes on unless they're really really good. that's pretty much why i think the classic bands all fell apart. and I think the disillusion caused by the way the prog giants fell along with the overall social changes at the time is the reason why the classic sound wasn't continued by new bands that much. the youth didn't have that magic hope for otherworldly futures, they were accepting the grim realities of the world hence why i think punk and metal rose up in the next period of time


Edited by Sumdeus - November 07 2012 at 16:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2012 at 17:12
A fairly similar thread here:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86209&KW=punk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smartpatrol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2012 at 17:47
corruption, boredom, experimentation, popular music changing, etc.

Edited by smartpatrol - November 07 2012 at 17:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prog_Traveller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2012 at 19:17
Originally posted by Neelus Neelus wrote:

Looking at the latter part of the seventies. We all know Gabriel's costumes got bigger.  The ELP crew got enormous.  The bigger the show, the better.  
Did the evolve from musical experimentalism into overblown stage antics during this period cause prog's demise against the punk movement?
Why would the huge show that never ends fail? Were there other factors involved that ended classic prog?



Record companies became more involved in shaping what was allowed to be marketed and played on the radio. At some point it became obvious that prog was a bit of a niche market and didn't necessarily have mass appeal. Sure, Yes and ELP and maybe a few others sold lots of albums but it was always a bit of a hard sell and the longer songs meant less airtime for other artists especially when punk came on the scene. Punk and new wave (and to a lesser degree disco)pushed prog in the background and ultimately under ground. Prog was barely visible in the 80's except to those who went out of their way looking for it. At some point, people started to become interested again when old prog albums(even obscure ones)were reissued on cd. It was still underground at this point but catalogs started to appear and then the internet happened which helped to make prog visible once again although still mainly to those who went looking for it(at least at first).


But, getting back to your initial statement there were things that the press jumped on and used as fodder to badmouth prog. Rick Wakeman eating chicken curry on stage while performing, Greg Lake's persian rug, Gabriel's "superman" costume(and others), double albums with outrageous concepts or few long songs, the list goes on and on. Purists thought prog was ridiculous or at least became more ridiculous. Greg Lake once said in an interview "of course we were pretentious." Comparing prog to punk is like comparing a filet mignon to a mcdonald's hamburger. 


Music as it's marketed in mainstream music media such as the radio is almost always going to be viewed as fashion. Fahion's come and go. I'm not sure if the internet saved prog or that it resurrected prog since it never really died but it did make it easier for many people to be aware of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prog_Traveller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2012 at 19:20
Originally posted by mister nobody mister nobody wrote:

Well, people got bored of it, I think.



There's that. More specifically, the wrong people got bored of it(ie music critics and music industry execs).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silveraindrop75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2012 at 19:34
all movements fade and morph. nothing stays the same. it never faded, it just changed, and so did the mediums used to present it. you could just as easily stay that it's still here to some degree, and argue that it never faded completely.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2012 at 19:48
Maybe because of the rise of Progressive metal in the last 20 years?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2012 at 20:17
The classic Prog bands simply stopped making great albums.. so did many of the great rock bands.
The bands that kept making great albums survived.

I disagree that it was required that bands stayed with the times and did cheesy 80's pop.  Look at Van Halen or Metallica.
The Cure and U2 did artsy albums with a lot of Darker material.  Ozzy did fine without going Flock of Seagulls.

Let me ask this question..

Did any Classic Prog bands release a great album in the 80's?

I would say YES got lucky with their pop anthem..

To me Fripp is the only one that rode the wave and kept things interesting right up into the mid 2000's. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smartpatrol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2012 at 20:36
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

Did any Classic Prog bands release a great album in the 80's?


Rush - Moving Pictures
King Crimson - Discipline
Genesis - Genesis

to name a few
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jude111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2012 at 21:03
It wasn't just punk. There's disco as well, which was massive and outsold everything else. (And in retrospect, didn't suck as much as we all thought it did at the time - at least, not all of it) In the late 70s, Blondie and Chic's Nile Rodgers got together to play and somehow in the process "Rapper's Delight" was created, and voila, rap as a mainstream phenomena was born. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapper%27s_delight )
 
And it's also my theory that the American musical press exercised a great degree of hegemony over the British press (because of economic factors? Or some Anglo-transatlantic arse-kissing? or perhaps because of the financial power of American consumers? all of the above?), and thus dominated discussions about what is "cool" and determined trends in music (and let's face it, all the great prog bands were British and European, and from other places as well - but hardly any from the U.S.).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote prog4evr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2012 at 23:26
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:


To me Fripp is the only one that rode the wave and kept things interesting right up into the mid 2000's. 
THIS...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prog_Traveller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2012 at 00:11
Originally posted by smartpatrol smartpatrol wrote:

Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

Did any Classic Prog bands release a great album in the 80's?


Rush - Moving Pictures
King Crimson - Discipline
Genesis - Genesis

to name a few



Don't forget Yes 90125 and Drama. Also a few more by Rush and Emerson Lake and Powell.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2012 at 00:32
^ He said "a great album in the '80s", not ... "an album in the '80s".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2012 at 01:21
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

The classic Prog bands simply stopped making great albums.. so did many of the great rock bands.The bands that kept making great albums survived.I disagree that it was required that bands stayed with the times and did cheesy 80's pop.  Look at Van Halen or Metallica.The Cure and U2 did artsy albums with a lot of Darker material.  Ozzy did fine without going Flock of Seagulls.Let me ask this question..Did any Classic Prog bands release a great album in the 80's?I would say YES got lucky with their pop anthem.. To me Fripp is the only one that rode the wave and kept things interesting right up into the mid 2000's. 


GENESIS's DUKE album is an absolute slam dunk    I mean that album is the Perfect blend of pop and prog tied together. Never thought it could work, bug it certainly did. Genesis pulled that one off
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2012 at 01:44
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ He said "a great album in the '80s", not ... "an album in the '80s".
 
indeedLOL
 
The bands that made prog recognisable simply got old and the bands that should have replaced them were largely ignored after punk. Be Bop Deluxe and Lone Star were two interesting bands that just stopped around 1978 for commercial reasons yet had made some really interesting music. Coloseum 2 were another example. ELP,Yes and Genesis just didn't evolve at all and very few people believe there later albums get close to their earlier albums. Therefore the writing was on the wall regardless of punk happening or not. The baton was never passed on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2012 at 01:55
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ He said "a great album in the '80s", not ... "an album in the '80s".

 

indeedLOL

 

The bands that made prog recognisable simply got old and the bands that should have replaced them were largely ignored after punk. Be Bop Deluxe and Lone Star were two interesting bands that just stopped around 1978 for commercial reasons yet had made some really interesting music. Coloseum 2 were another example. ELP,Yes and Genesis just didn't evolve at all and very few people believe there later albums get close to their earlier albums. Therefore the writing was on the wall regardless of punk happening or not. The baton was never passed on.


I think GENESIS evolved immensely. As the 80's loomed forth GENESIS ushered in a new and fresh sound by blending pop and prog together. I said it once and I'll say it again, DUKE is a masterpiece because it shows the promising evolution of GENESIS all together. In my opinion, GENESIS evolved greatly
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2012 at 02:08
Rush - Moving Pictures
King Crimson - Discipline
Genesis - Genesis


I think all three of those albums were released in 1980.  So technically they were probably written in the 70's!

Genesis of course fell apart... Rush never made another great prog album.  Crimson did some fantastic stuff later on.

Yes is not really a great Prog band without Steve Howe and Wakeman. 

I just think it is very odd that nearly all of the great Prog bands fell away from their roots and strengths as soon as the 80's arrived. 

Giant for a Day?
Cured?
We Can't Dance?
A?
I can see your House from Here?

I do think Deep Purple made a respectable record in the 80's (Perfect Strangers)
What would Zeppelin have done in the 80's?  Maybe that is good that didn't happen.




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