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FDR vs JFK

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Poll Question: Which American presdient commonly apriviated into 3 letters is best?
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12 [66.67%]
6 [33.33%]
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Atavachron View Drop Down
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    Posted: November 12 2012 at 20:27
Originally posted by JJLehto

As we know his pressuring of the mafia maybe was his downfall...
Maybe but unlikely.  Those closest to him - advisors, Secret Service, etc. - saw the worst of it--   the amphetamines, steroids, and god knows what else his doctors were giving him (partly for pain, partly to keep going);  the sexual deviance (which did evidently happen frequently and distastefully);  the youthful affair with a suspected East German spy.  Of course for all his flaws he gave back to the country just as much with bold moves to reform the Fed, peace with Russia, civil rights, and an increasing nonintervention policy in Southeast Asia.

We don't know who killed him and may never, but as history unravels, the Mob is becoming the least likely of suspects, IMO, despite any "deathbed confessions".



Edited by Atavachron - November 12 2012 at 20:30
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 20:36
Eh I really never bothered with all the "fun" stuff like sexual escapades. I much prefer the lame boring stuff like economic and foreign policy!

Nah I really do think JFK would've become a great figure. He seemed to be turning into his own man and I DO think we would've seen the end of Vietnam.  With that, maybe a different tone with the Cold War.
It's complete speculation his intent with the Fed..I've heard either it was his first step to end it or just a minor move but yeah he did attempt to make reform.

I wish I was alive in the 60's, I really can see how his death could've felt like the death of hope :/
Sadly all we have is the great mystery of his death, a lot of what ifs...and his tax cut and Civil Rights Act.





Edited by JJLehto - November 12 2012 at 20:37
"It's fine, luckily we're all English so no one will ask any questions. Thank you centuries of emotional repression."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 20:38
and his great speeches

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Post Options Post Options   Quote thellama73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 20:44
I have never bought into the "magic bullet" theory. Ballistics is an incredibly complex science and I don't think we really have a good sense of what is possible or impossible. In fact, a lot of scientific discoveries happen when something impossible happens and they then have to find a way to explain it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Finnforest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 20:45
Originally posted by JJLehto

Eh I really never bothered with all the "fun" stuff like sexual escapades. I much prefer the lame boring stuff like economic and foreign policy!

Nah I really do think JFK would've become a great figure. He seemed to be turning into his own man and I DO think we would've seen the end of Vietnam.  With that, maybe a different tone with the Cold War.
It's complete speculation his intent with the Fed..I've heard either it was his first step to end it or just a minor move but yeah he did attempt to make reform.

I wish I was alive in the 60's, I really can see how his death could've felt like the death of hope :/
Sadly all we have is the great mystery of his death, a lot of what ifs...and his tax cut and Civil Rights Act.






My Dad told me the story of that day many times.  He was a truck driver, and was heading down University Ave in Saint Paul, a very busy street.  Looking out the window he noticed a disturbingly large number of people crying, some hugging each other.  He remembered one guy in particular being down on one knee at a bus stop, weeping inconsolably.  He had to stop briefly and ask what the hell was going on. 

He said everyone was completely glued to the television for days, with the news and funeral. 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 20:51
Originally posted by Finnforest

Originally posted by JJLehto

Eh I really never bothered with all the "fun" stuff like sexual escapades. I much prefer the lame boring stuff like economic and foreign policy!

Nah I really do think JFK would've become a great figure. He seemed to be turning into his own man and I DO think we would've seen the end of Vietnam.  With that, maybe a different tone with the Cold War.
It's complete speculation his intent with the Fed..I've heard either it was his first step to end it or just a minor move but yeah he did attempt to make reform.

I wish I was alive in the 60's, I really can see how his death could've felt like the death of hope :/
Sadly all we have is the great mystery of his death, a lot of what ifs...and his tax cut and Civil Rights Act.






My Dad told me the story of that day many times.  He was a truck driver, and was heading down University Ave in Saint Paul, a very busy street.  Looking out the window he noticed a disturbingly large number of people crying, some hugging each other.  He remembered one guy in particular being down on one knee at a bus stop, weeping inconsolably.  He had to stop briefly and ask what the hell was going on. 

He said everyone was completely glued to the television for days, with the news and funeral. 


I wasn't a trucker, but that sounds a lot like how I recall 9/11/2001
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HarbouringTheSoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 20:57
I have never encountered a single person that didn't consider FDR to be a successful president besides this forum. I've even been taught about the success of the New Deal and Keynesian economics in school.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote thellama73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 21:01
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul

I have never encountered a single person that didn't consider FDR to be a successful president besides this forum. I've even been taught about the success of the New Deal and Keynesian economics in school.


What a terrible place school is.

Did they also teach you that Columbus discovered America because he was the only one who thought the world was round?


Edited by thellama73 - November 12 2012 at 21:02
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 21:03
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul

I have never encountered a single person that didn't consider FDR to be a successful president besides this forum. I've even been taught about the success of the New Deal and Keynesian economics in school.


It's all that damned liberal indoctrination.  Every good conservative knows what a terrible president FDR was.  It's become part of the conservative dogma.  You can't worship Reagan, big business and the wealthy and hold FDR in high regard at the same time. 
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HarbouringTheSoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 21:04
Originally posted by thellama73

What a terrible place school is.

Says the guy who was homeschooled Tongue

So what convinced you that FDR was such a terrible president? You must understand that I'm naturally rather wary of what in my experience is a fringe opinion.

Originally posted by thellama73

Did they also teach you that Columbus discovered America because he was the only one who thought the world was round?

Obviously not. There's a difference between proven facts and the historical interpretation of a president's policies.


Edited by HarbouringTheSoul - November 12 2012 at 21:06
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 21:11
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul

Originally posted by thellama73

What a terrible place school is.

Says the guy who was homeschooled Tongue

So what convinced you that FDR was such a terrible president? You must understand that I'm naturally rather wary of what in my experience is a fringe opinion.




Because mainstream opinions are so chic, right?

Look, save us time:

If we explain it to you, will you seriously consider what we tell you about FDR?  Or will you go "BAH.  Mrs. Merkelstein taught me different in civics!"

We promise to include sources.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HarbouringTheSoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 21:14
Originally posted by Epignosis

Because mainstream opinions are so chic, right?

I've found most of them to be quite useful.

Originally posted by Epignosis

Look, save us time:

If we explain it to you, will you seriously consider what we tell you about FDR?  Or will you go "BAH.  Mrs. Merkelstein taught me different in civics!"

We promise to include sources.


If I weren't willing to consider what you say, why would I ask you? My economics classes were terrible (for reasons that had nothing to do with FDR).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote thellama73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 21:15
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul

Says the guy who was homeschooled Tongue

So what convinced you that FDR was such a terrible president? You must understand that I'm naturally rather wary of what in my experience is a fringe opinion.

Having known quite a few teachers and having been one, I think it is a mistake to assume they know more than the average person simply because they have been given that role (no offense, Rob)

There are many things. He made it illegal for private citizens to own gold. He put price caps on wages, which forced companies to offer perks(like health insurance) to compete for workers, which is part of why the health care market is so screwed up right now and why you lose your insurance when you quit your job.

He implemented many social welfare programs that I believe are bad for the economy, the culture and people's standards of living. He adopted economic policies that I believe extended the Great Depression.

Let me briefly explain the main problem with Keynesian economics.

GDP is defined as equal to consumption, plus investment, plus government spending, plus net exports.
GDP = C + I + G + NX

Looking at that equation, it is clear that increasing government spending will increase GDP, right? Only if we hold all the other variables constant. The economy is not a laboratory where you can control one variable at a time, though. If you raise G, the money has to come from somewhere. Where does it come from? It can come from three places.

1. The government can simply print money. This just causes prices to rise, however, so in real terms you have not increased GDP, plus you have inflicted the costs of inflation on the country, which is bad.

2. You can get the money from taxpayers. Well then, that is less money they have for consumption or investment, so those variables will go down and, at the very least, you'll get a smaller increase than you anticipated, and at worst administrative costs will actually cause a reduction in GDP.

3. You can borrow it by selling government bonds. But the people you sell the bonds to already think America is a good investment, or they wouldn't buy them. If there were no government bonds for sale, they would invest in something else, so in this case the rise in G is met by a fall in either NX or I.

These are the things they don't teach in college economics classes (unless I am teaching them.)


Edited by thellama73 - November 12 2012 at 21:17
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 21:19
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul

Originally posted by Epignosis

Because mainstream opinions are so chic, right?

I've found most of them to be quite useful.

Originally posted by Epignosis

Look, save us time:

If we explain it to you, will you seriously consider what we tell you about FDR?  Or will you go "BAH.  Mrs. Merkelstein taught me different in civics!"

We promise to include sources.


If I weren't willing to consider what you say, why would I ask you? My economics classes were terrible (for reasons that had nothing to do with FDR).


I've been asked before and dismissed even after putting more than an hour into putting together data, which wasn't even addressed.  I meant no offense to you.


Originally posted by thellama73


Having known quite a few teachers and having been one, I think it is a mistake to assume they know more than the average person simply because they have been given that role (no offense, Rob)



I didn't need to become a teacher to know that, Logan.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 21:35
I am tired and I have to work tomorrow.  So I will say one thing and then ask a specific question.

Recessions and depressions happen.  They don't occur because of free markets.  They occur.

What is your opinion of this President?



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Calvin_Coolidge-Garo.jpg
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Post Options Post Options   Quote thellama73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 21:37
Old Silent Cal.

"Mr. Coolidge, I wagered my friend that I would be able to get more than two words out of you before the end of the evening."
"You lose."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 21:41
Originally posted by thellama73

I have never bought into the "magic bullet" theory. Ballistics is an incredibly complex science and I don't think we really have a good sense of what is possible or impossible. In fact, a lot of scientific discoveries happen when something impossible happens and they then have to find a way to explain it.
True-- If someone alone was firing from behind JFK, that rifle could have, theoretically, caused the wounds to both he and Connelly.

The bullets owned by Oswald at the time and attributed to the three empty shells found on the 6th floor were cheap surplus bullets from WW II (like the alleged rifle).   They were copper jacketed as per war conventions to avoid explosive wounds.  When the FBI test-fired those bullets, they tended to fragment.   The bullet reported to have struck JFK in the rear skull may have entered the skull and fragmented causing multiple exit wounds to the top and rear.   This would've caused an unusually massive and complex wound.   Further, the shooter could easily have fired four or even five shots despite what the Warren report insists.

But that's assuming it was Oswald or someone using his rifle and ammunition.   The best official evidence suggests Oswald alone;  the Empirical evidence suggests otherwise.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote HarbouringTheSoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 21:44
Originally posted by thellama73

Having known quite a few teachers and having been one, I think it is a mistake to assume they know more than the average person simply because they have been given that role (no offense, Rob)

That's not what I'm assuming. That teacher in particular didn't know anything about, well, anything. I dropped the class after a year and have been an uninformed idiot on economic issues ever since. Otherwise I would have been a misinformed idiot.

Originally posted by thellama73

He made it illegal for private citizens to own gold.

I have no idea why that would be either bad or good. (See how uninformed I am?)

Originally posted by thellama73

He put price caps on wages, which forced companies to offer perks(like health insurance) to compete for workers, which is part of why the health care market is so screwed up right now and why you lose your insurance when you quit your job.

So you're saying it's a bad thing that companies offered their employees health insurance? I consider that a great improvement. Ultimately it's problematic to tie health insurance to employment (what if you're unemployed?), but it's better than the alternative at that point, which would have been no insurance at all for many people.

Originally posted by thellama73

He implemented many social welfare programs that I believe are bad for the economy, the culture and people's standards of living.

We have explored our differences on that topic at length elsewhere. Whatever the effects of welfare programs on the economy may be, I consider them necessary because they're the only way of guaranteeing certain things.

Originally posted by thellama73

He adopted economic policies that I believe extended the Great Depression.

Like?

Originally posted by thellama73

Let me briefly explain the main problem with Keynesian economics.

GDP is defined as equal to consumption, plus investment, plus government spending, plus net exports.
GDP = C + I + G + NX

Looking at that equation, it is clear that increasing government spending will increase GDP, right? Only if we hold all the other variables constant. The economy is not a laboratory where you can control one variable at a time, though. If you raise G, the money has to come from somewhere. Where does it come from? It can come from three places.

1. The government can simply print money. This just causes prices to rise, however, so in real terms you have not increased GDP, plus you have inflicted the costs of inflation on the country, which is bad.

Sure.

Originally posted by thellama73

2. You can get the money from taxpayers. Well then, that is less money they have for consumption or investment, so those variables will go down and, at the very least, you'll get a smaller increase than you anticipated, and at worst administrative costs will actually cause a reduction in GDP.

Not all money in existence is being spent or invested. Especially in the group of high-income individuals there is a lot of money that wouldn't be going anywhere if it weren't for taxes.

Originally posted by thellama73

3. You can borrow it by selling government bonds. But the people you sell the bonds to already think America is a good investment, or they wouldn't buy them. If there were no government bonds for sale, they would invest in something else, so in this case the rise in G is met by a fall in either NX or I.

There's a difference between investing in the American government and investing in the American economy. Government bonds are usually considered extremely safe, so I'm sure there are people who wouldn't be investing their money at all if not for government bonds.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote thellama73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 21:52
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul


Not all money in existence is being spent or invested. Especially in the group of high-income individuals there is a lot of money that wouldn't be going anywhere if it weren't for taxes.
 


Really? Where is all that money? Do rich people keep it in vaults like Scrooge McDuck?

Cash money earns a negative interest rate because of inflation. No rich person is dumb enough to leave significant piles of cash lying around and losing money. When you put money in a bank, it doesn't just sit there in the vault,  they loan it out to people to spend or invest. That is how they make their money. Sure, there are little pockets of money sitting ni jars in people's homes, but that is pretty insignificant compared to what is spent and invested. It is a bad business move not to invest your money, and rich people tend to get rich by not making bad business moves.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote stonebeard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 22:38
Originally posted by The Doctor

 
As for the Constitution, sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few to cling to a 150 year old piece of paper (it was only 150 years old in 1939 before anyone says it's older than 150). 

The needs of the many are better served by following the Constitution than by not so.
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