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The best ones have a immediate impact

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HarbouringTheSoul View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HarbouringTheSoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The best ones have a immediate impact
    Posted: November 27 2012 at 07:42
Originally posted by moshkito

In general, the best ones usually always have an impact in one way or another and none of the groups you mentioned had an immediate impact, btw ... in fact PF had serious issues with Syd at the lead, and some of the things they were doing live, were not the pop songs on the albums, which created a live issue for the band. YES, spent a long time trying to get it down and together, and it was their 3rd album that kicked in. Rush, I prefer not to discuss and PFM was already an established band by the time we heard about them in the rest of the world ...

The social impact of a group has nothing to do with the personal impact of a piece of music, which is what the OP was talking about.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2012 at 07:39
Originally posted by sagichim

I think it's right and wrong. With some albums, on the first listen I realized I was listening to something great but some just went over my head or took some time to digest or fully discover.
It happened to me just a few weeks ago with the debut album by Druckfarben. When it was finished I knew it was a 5 star album.
That won't necessarily make it a Classic Album - you could be sick of it this time next week/month/year/decade. Many albums have been 5-star albums after I've listened to them once or twice that have dropped to 4 or even 3 later.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2012 at 07:38
Hi,
 
If "melody" was the main definition of music, almost all the composers of the 20th century would never have made it, or be discussed today.
 
"Melody" is the simplest thing to work around in music ... but it is also the most over rated part of music, and the one part that often is not even the major part in it.
 
Popular music milks the easiest parts of the music, so you can have that guy playing the clarinet for the housewives in the afternoons and such ... and the guitar 30 second has become the barbie doll of all pieces of music that everyone gets attached to ... other than the naked girl of course!
 
In general, the best ones usually always have an impact in one way or another and none of the groups you mentioned had an immediate impact, btw ... in fact PF had serious issues with Syd at the lead, and some of the things they were doing live, were not the pop songs on the albums, which created a live issue for the band. YES, spent a long time trying to get it down and together, and it was their 3rd album that kicked in. Rush, I prefer not to discuss and PFM was already an established band by the time we heard about them in the rest of the world ...
 
Generally, I prefer to state that you can not put down superior muscianship and work ... a hit comes and goes ... but the works of the best will be remembered for a much longer time!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sagichim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2012 at 06:55
I think it's right and wrong. With some albums, on the first listen I realized I was listening to something great but some just went over my head or took some time to digest or fully discover.
It happened to me just a few weeks ago with the debut album by Druckfarben. When it was finished I knew it was a 5 star album.
"One good thing about music, when it hits you feel no pain.."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2012 at 06:17
The albums I consider masterpieces usually struck a chord with me on the first listen.  Tales from Topographic Oceans, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, Mei, etc.  They all grabbed me and held on.

There are exceptions. albums that took time to sink in.  The Hemulic Voluntary Band is one of those.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2012 at 06:07
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul


Regarding the "exhibit A" that's being used in this thread, my opinion on Tales has stayed pretty much the same from my first listen to the most recent one: It has some good parts and some boring parts. The magnitude might have changed - I like the bulk of "Ritual" more than I used to while a good portion of "The Remembering" has just grown duller and duller - but not my general opinion - I've always liked the bulk "Ritual" and disliked a good portion of "The Remembering". Repeated listens (and there were many of them) have improved my awareness of what's going on, but they have only confirmed my initial assessment. The good parts are still good and the crappy parts are still crappy.
There you go then. There are no golden rules and no generalisations. One size definitely does not fit all. Every possible scenario for people liking or disliking this album that could exist probably does exist and that still disproves the OP. Hence "Exhibit 'A'Wink


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Post Options Post Options   Quote HarbouringTheSoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2012 at 05:59
Originally posted by QuestionableScum

Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul


Originally posted by QuestionableScum

I enjoy Stravinsky and Bartok myself, but my point was to say that because their music is still enjoyed by others nearly 100 years after it was produced this shows that their music is not forgettable.
And why would it be? In accordance to rdtprog's "theory", much of their music has made an immediate impact on me.


It took me several listens to truly enjoy Bartok and Stravinsky, and I know it has taken several listens for other people. So while it may have had an immediate impact on you, I think for many it was not something that immediately connected with them.

Sure, it took me several listens to 'truly enjoy' their music, simply because it's too dense and complex to absorb in one go. But nevertheless something caught my interest right away. This might not hold true for everybody, and neither do I claim it does, but it holds true for my experience.

Originally posted by QuestionableScum

Also, the OP's theory made some comments about the melodic character of music, and as much as I love Stravinsky and Bartok, their music is not particularly melodic. Dissonance usually dominates over consonance in terms of harmony.

Melodies can be dissonant. There's this tendency in casual conversation to use the word 'melodic' to mean 'consonant' or even 'catchy', but that's not true. Both Stravinsky's and Bartok's music is perfectly melodic. It just might be harder for the ear to parse these melodies, because they're often outside of the harmonic relations we are familiar with.

Originally posted by Polymorphia

You may like a song that impacts you instantly, and that's fine. I do too; however, if you say that instantly impacting music is necessarily better than gradually impacting music, or vice versa, we have a problem. By saying so, you have necessarily prescribed one mode of listening/appreciating over another (instant gratification in music is better than gradual gratification in music), which is very limiting to aesthetic taste and can cause one to miss out on a lot of masterpieces.

Gratification isn't the same as what the OP called 'impact'. What I call 'impact' is when I recognize something in a piece of music that interests me. That doesn't mean I instantly enjoy the whole piece, but it gives me the indication that it's something I might enjoy. I have yet to come across a piece of music that didn't interest me at all on first listen and later became something I enjoyed. Of course, when I say 'first listen', I mean a real listen, not just putting the music on in the background while doing something else.

Originally posted by thellama73

I feel like I'm going to scream having to listen to you idiots.

That, we can all agree on, is objectively rude and insulting. I reiterate: It's not about adding "IMHO" to every opinion. It's about accepting that when it comes to taste, other people's opinions can coexist happily with yours. When you say "accessible pop music of course isn't good", you're trying to invalidate the opinion of everybody who might actually enjoy accessible pop music. Had you said "pop music sucks", that would have been fine. I would have disagreed (and rather vehemently so), but it would have been a valid statement of your opinion, regardless of whether you designated it as such. But when you add something like "of course", which implies that what you said should be self-evident to everybody, you're no longer just stating your opinion, you're implying that something must be wrong with everybody who disagrees because he doesn't see the truth that you find so obvious. That is offensive, even if you add "IMHO".

Regarding the "exhibit A" that's being used in this thread, my opinion on Tales has stayed pretty much the same from my first listen to the most recent one: It has some good parts and some boring parts. The magnitude might have changed - I like the bulk of "Ritual" more than I used to while a good portion of "The Remembering" has just grown duller and duller - but not my general opinion - I've always liked the bulk "Ritual" and disliked a good portion of "The Remembering". Repeated listens (and there were many of them) have improved my awareness of what's going on, but they have only confirmed my initial assessment. The good parts are still good and the crappy parts are still crappy.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2012 at 05:26
Originally posted by rdtprog

I have read all replies and while some are deploring the subjective matter of the thread, i think that some tend to see the things in my perspective and others not, which is the norm in every philosophical thread. Its true that the term "best" in a title could be misleading, but a title is suppose to create a "immediate impact"..., so pardon me this intrusion. I was only making a observation of how my relation to the music can take different directions, and only that if i force myself to discover new kind of progressive music that is more complex, challenging or adventurous, i also in the same time, need to go back to beautiful melodies that doesn't have the repetition of pop music.

While some of view can discover some new things in a song by repeated listening, that is not to me the impact i was referring too. I am sure that a lot of you know on a first listening if a song have a impact on you and will still have in the future, and again i don't mean that it's a pop tune with catchy beat and melody, but it could be a song that contains many movements and a strong melody and it could be a classical song with no vocals. What could be subjective is that the classical pieces that have a impact doesn't reach me at the same level as a progressive rock song. I don't want to say that a form a music is better than another one, but only that the best composers on any music genre are the ones who have the art of touching  the audience with something in theirs songs that make that we want to hear their songs many times. It's like what we call here "The classic albums".
In that case I think you may be more *wrong* than I first imagined... I use the word *wrong* here in desperate need of another that more adequately conveys what I mean - I don't mean you are incorrect, because that is obviously not true for you, I mean that would be wrong for me and probably lots of other people reading this if that were our philosophy. Therefore it is not the generalisation implicit in the title or any explanation you've given. Many of us become quickly innured to songs that have immediate impact, and that is evident here in the misuse of that other word of contention - *overrated*. Bottom line is there is not general formula for what makes a classic album a classic album, it's not melody, catchiness, structure, subject matter, complexity, length or even who composed it (so no, I don't think the best composers are the ones who have the art of touching), yet it is possible that some classic albums some or all of those traits, and some that have none. No golden rules or everyone would be doing it.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Moogtron III Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2012 at 05:11
Originally posted by Dean

^ that.
 
Exhibit A:

That is one of the best examples why I don't agree with the theory of the OP.
It took me some time to appreciate Tales, and now it's one of my favorite Yes albums.
Same goes for some other albums, like Camel's classic albums: it took me some time to really appreciate them.
I thought they were boring when I first listened to them.
Still, sometimes I think the theory is right after all: sometimes I hear a song/album for the first time, and I think by myself that one day I might really like it.
It's just not a matter of always.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rdtprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2012 at 04:48
I have read all replies and while some are deploring the subjective matter of the thread, i think that some tend to see the things in my perspective and others not, which is the norm in every philosophical thread. Its true that the term "best" in a title could be misleading, but a title is suppose to create a "immediate impact"..., so pardon me this intrusion. I was only making a observation of how my relation to the music can take different directions, and only that if i force myself to discover new kind of progressive music that is more complex, challenging or adventurous, i also in the same time, need to go back to beautiful melodies that doesn't have the repetition of pop music.

While some of view can discover some new things in a song by repeated listening, that is not to me the impact i was referring too. I am sure that a lot of you know on a first listening if a song have a impact on you and will still have in the future, and again i don't mean that it's a pop tune with catchy beat and melody, but it could be a song that contains many movements and a strong melody and it could be a classical song with no vocals. What could be subjective is that the classical pieces that have a impact doesn't reach me at the same level as a progressive rock song. I don't want to say that a form a music is better than another one, but only that the best composers on any music genre are the ones who have the art of touching  the audience with something in theirs songs that make that we want to hear their songs many times. It's like what we call here "The classic albums".
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tamijo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2012 at 03:51
Originally posted by rdtprog

I am curious if some agree with me, when i say that the best songs we can hear on a progressive rock cd are the one that have a immediate impact on you. I mean when you can clearly feel the sense of the melody and you are immediately affect positively by it. And the songs that take many takes to get something out of it don't have such strong melody and are easily forgotten. For those kind of songs it takes great songwriting by the artists to be able to connect emotionally to the listener. I don't want to say by this, that only songs that have a strong or catchy melody have a impact on you, but that they are the songs that are the most memorable for us and, that we want to listen over and over again. There also songs that we can enjoy for the sound, the atmosphere or the complexity, but i think that those things should never overshadows the melody in the songs.

I think that the bands that have strong songwriting ability, by creating the best songs, are rare. Is this what we call "genius" , "gifted"? Is melody the essential part of music and the at a point where sometimes we can say that its surpassed the artist, just like he was control by a higher energy impossible to describe.

Genesis, Yes, Pink Floyd, PFM, Rush are in the category that i have in mind, and soul... when i am thinking about great songs with a sense of melody, which mean more than a succession of notes and tones, but something that reach the listener deeper,  a bit like when you find yourself humming or when people say that they can't get the songs out of their heads.

The simple short answer is NO, i love a lot of music, that i cant hum.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zeqexes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2012 at 01:57
Originally posted by thellama73

I don't agree with you. I think the best songs are often the ones that require a little time to fully digest and appreciate. If your theory were true, then we would be forced to conclude that highly accessible pop/dance music is really good, which of course it isn't.

I agree, although I do think that some accessible pop is quite good.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 21:34
Basically "no" but a concession to "yes".
 
I think we proggers have our own perception of what we can find as "instantly melodical", which can vary across quite a broad range compared to people who have not been exposed to prog or jazz or classical music.
Many stuff other people might find unlisteneable will probably catch our attention on first listen, but what this stuff is depends a lot on what kind of music we are fond of, symphonic, math, RIO, fusion, post-rock or whatever.
 
So it's a difficult question. I would say a conditional "well yes, melody plays an important part" but we must acknowledge that the very word "melodical" is subjective, in particular for us proggers.
 
Personally I would also add to "melody" "harmony", frequently it's not the monophonic melody that catches my attention but the polyphonic harmonies, the relationships between melody and backing notes.
 
Much of the music I love did not get me on a first listen but only after repeated and carefull listenings, but I reckon that some melodies / harmonies got me from the first listen and have remained favourites.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 20:40
Originally posted by thellama73


Originally posted by progbethyname

This thread is so incredibly subjective. I can't say if a piece of music hits me hard the first listen, that it is all together definitively better!? No way man! Same goes vise versa. That includes any genre as well. If we wantbyo get into crazy semantics like categorizing songs that are better based on their genre cause it grows on ya quicker does that mean its better? No no no I think not, but is their a musical skill level difference? I would think so.

Let's bring out a fun scenario shall we. TEARS FOR FEARS. Ok they are pop/electronic rock group and we will compare to YES. Let's take a song from each band. For TFF-- Shout, For YES--Siberia

which is the song that is most likely gonna grow on ya first to call it 'best' in this regard???
I DON'T KNOW CAUSE IM NOT YOU!!! This thread is way too subjective, but quite humorous   Lol
It's a music forum. Every thread is subjective. If you want objective threads, go to a science forum or something. I feel like I'm going to scream having to listen to you idiots.


Think your right. I should lighten up a bit.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote thellama73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 20:03
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

Originally posted by Dean

... it takes time to appreciate the skill that Wakeman in particular used on that album in connecting those disparate melodies.
Wakeman? Wasn't the album a work of Anderson and Howe? "Rick, please, I want you to nail those keyboard parts."
Anderson and Howe produced the themes, melodies, concept and ideas. Excluded from that creative process Wakeman was left to connect the dots and provide the glue that holds it all together, which I suspect is why long sweeping swathes of synth are prevalent throughout creating atmosphere and more importantly, an ebb and flow of music - there are a couple of very good solos from him on the album, but that wasn't his role (and that's ultimately why he left). It's not his best work as a solo performer within a band, but it is some of his best work as a band member. Here (IMO) Rick Wakeman is forced to do what Rick Wright did so effortlessly - blend in.


This is well said. I find that Tales has a cohesiveness between the movements that is lacking in most other prog epics, and a large share of that credit does indeed go to Wakeman. It's sort of like the difference between A Beethoven symphony (the fifth, for example, in which all the movement's are built on the rhythm short-short-short-long) and a Mozart symphony (in which the movements are entirely unrelated.)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 19:58
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

Originally posted by Dean

... it takes time to appreciate the skill that Wakeman in particular used on that album in connecting those disparate melodies.
Wakeman? Wasn't the album a work of Anderson and Howe? "Rick, please, I want you to nail those keyboard parts."
Anderson and Howe produced the themes, melodies, concept and ideas. Excluded from that creative process Wakeman was left to connect the dots and provide the glue that holds it all together, which I suspect is why long sweeping swathes of synth are prevalent throughout creating atmosphere and more importantly, an ebb and flow of music - there are a couple of very good solos from him on the album, but that wasn't his role (and that's ultimately why he left). It's not his best work as a solo performer within a band, but it is some of his best work as a band member. Here (IMO) Rick Wakeman is forced to do what Rick Wright did so effortlessly - blend in.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote menawati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 19:52
Varies a lot. Some things that hit me first time are still my favourites and other things I didn't like on a first few listens have grown to be favourites.
They flutter behind you your possible pasts,
Some bright-eyed and crazy, some frightened and lost.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote thellama73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 19:27
Originally posted by progbethyname

This thread is so incredibly subjective. I can't say if a piece of music hits me hard the first listen, that it is all together definitively better!? No way man! Same goes vise versa. That includes any genre as well. If we wantbyo get into crazy semantics like categorizing songs that are better based on their genre cause it grows on ya quicker does that mean its better? No no no I think not, but is their a musical skill level difference? I would think so.

Let's bring out a fun scenario shall we. TEARS FOR FEARS. Ok they are pop/electronic rock group and we will compare to YES. Let's take a song from each band. For TFF-- Shout, For YES--Siberia

which is the song that is most likely gonna grow on ya first to call it 'best' in this regard???
I DON'T KNOW CAUSE IM NOT YOU!!! This thread is way too subjective, but quite humorous   Lol


It's a music forum. Every thread is subjective. If you want objective threads, go to a science forum or something. I feel like I'm going to scream having to listen to you idiots.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 19:22
Originally posted by Dean

... it takes time to appreciate the skill that Wakeman in particular used on that album in connecting those disparate melodies.
Wakeman? Wasn't the album a work of Anderson and Howe? "Rick, please, I want you to nail those keyboard parts."
"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 18:47
I neither write off music that doesn't have an immediate impact nor do I conclude that music that does is just shallow and fluff.   Both positions are extreme and not very helpful to a person who wants to enjoy more music. 
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