Symphonic in the 00's, an advantage or a handicap?

Polymorphia wrote: Symphonic prog has a pretty specific criteria. It pretty hard to write music organically, experiment with new ideas, and manage to ski ball it into the symph-prog hole. On the other hand, I don't fault an artist with sounding like another, if that's the music they truly want to be making. I just won't buy their albums.

Seriously? I can't say I see any specific criteria. They all had classical influences for sure, although I'm not sure what one would say about Nektar in this regard. The commonality doesn't go far beyond that. They all had other influences too. Van der Graaf Generator seems more rooted in jazz to me. Even on the classical side ELP, King Crimson, Gentle Giant, and Genesis all gravitated to different historical periods of classical music. Some material one might not actually even call symphonic. There are plenty of blues things, folky things, and just plain weird free-form things, like Genesis' the Waiting Room. Genesis is well known to have written a large portion of their material together "organically" through jam sessions.

Someone else commented on symphonic Prog being synth heavy, but this is of course only true about the later portion of the period in which synths were actually developed and they were able to procure them. Jade Warrior, for instance, didn't even use keyboards of any sort. They got their big sound with sax, droning distortion and flute. Jade Warrior also had a strong blues influence and were the first band to experiment with "world music" (way before Gabriel), demonstrating how expansive symphonic Prog could be. Hackett's post-Genesis work incorporates all sorts of different musical styles. While I'm sorry to be so contrary, the very idea of symphonic Prog as residing within some sort of pigeon hole is like a strange alternate reality, from my perception of things.

@Gallifrey:
This is all well and good. I don't begrudge you your tastes, appreciate the band recommendations, and agree with you about Dream Theater. I myself have always listened to other things over the years, such as Zappa or Henry Kaiser, who are definitely not Symphonic Prog.   The problem I'm having is that the direction of the discussion in it's outward appearance is focused on genre as if that's the only kind of innovation that can be made. I don't know if it's intended that way. If someone ushers in a new genre, they deserve kudos (perhaps), but I'm also I interested in new timbres, new approaches to phrasing, new playing techniques, new scales, new arrangements, new approaches to rhythm, new math, new... Whether this is done in one genre or another (Symphonic Prog included) is something to be openminded about, I think.

Edited by HackettFan - December 02 2012 at 16:19

It's hard to answer the question because the disadvantage you mention deals with a band's perception in the eyes of their audience, while the advantages deal with the ability to make quality music.  As far as audience perception goes, I think you have to say modern symph bands are both at an advantage and a disadvantage, because, while there are many prog fans who disdain modern symph because they view it as derivative, at the same time there are many fans who want to hear music inspired by Yes, Genesis, ELP, etc.

Insofar as actual musical quality goes, I can't see the symphonic prog style as an advantage or a disadvantage.  It's totally dependent on the skills of the performers.  Sure, the modern symph bands have Yes and Genesis and ELP to draw from but the old bands already had Hendrix and the Beatles and Mozart and Miles Davis.  The early symph bands, for the most part, weren't actively trying to create a new style.  They were just making the kind of music they wanted to make, influenced by the artists they listened to, which is the same thing the new symph bands are doing.  Their music just isn't as innovative typically because they draw most of their influences from a single genre, instead of multiple genres like the early prog bands did.

Progosopher wrote: It is a disadvantage if the band is trying to emulate the past by using the same equipment and compositional techniques of the past.  When that is the case, the best that can be achieved is an elaborate tribute to a sound from many years ago as well as the bands which had produced those sounds.  However, if a band can expand on the qualities of symphonic rock, using the past as an inspiration, then they have the potential to create something new.  The influences may always be there, but the music will be original.  To be honest, not many artists can pull this off, and that is actually a different disadvantage - a greater challenge.  As is often the case, the answer lies not in sweeping generalities, but in the hands of those who create the music.

I like your progosophy.

There are many ways you can compare two records or bands. In terms of originality, 70s prog wins every time, of course, but if you talk about music ideas, it's different. There are a lot of awesome 00s bands and a lot of average 70s bands, so in terms of music ideas and composition the two eras are comparable, IMO.

It is a disadvantage if the band is trying to emulate the past by using the same equipment and compositional techniques of the past.  When that is the case, the best that can be achieved is an elaborate tribute to a sound from many years ago as well as the bands which had produced those sounds.  However, if a band can expand on the qualities of symphonic rock, using the past as an inspiration, then they have the potential to create something new.  The influences may always be there, but the music will be original.  To be honest, not many artists can pull this off, and that is actually a different disadvantage - a greater challenge.  As is often the case, the answer lies not in sweeping generalities, but in the hands of those who create the music.

HackettFan wrote: I've always counted Peter Gabriel's Family and the Fishing Net as a symphonic Prog work, but it has the added influences from "world music" that give it a very unique character. People tend not to even notice it's very Genesis-like arrangements.

Agree, PG found a new dimension to symphonic (although it could be argued that he turned towards eclectic), but that was also a long time ago now... In any case it prooves that it should still be possible to find original new paths within symphonic.

Edited by Gerinski - December 02 2012 at 12:46

Nice topic man!

Edited by psarros - December 02 2012 at 09:34