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Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 26064
Posted: December 09 2012 at 02:57
moshkito wrote:
richardh wrote:
...
Seventies prog had a lot more dynamics though. Yeah I know its that old chestnut but modern symph prog is a lot more in your face and I think thats what makes it so different. Classic symph prog had lots of quiet atmospheric moments.
...
I think it DID have more dynamics, simply because the time and place was more conducive to experimenting and not so many folks telling it that it wasn't this or that ... like they do here!
The freedom is there ... you take it ... the freedom is not, most folks will not try different things, because they know everyone will trash it, and in this day and age, the commercialism is the only thing that will get you some sales ... which is an important consideration.
Ex: ... I seriously doubt that a Gentle Giant, would succeed today ... too far out there and strange and the lyrics? ... how can anyone relate to that, and a metal audience or some kind of strange other audience of half the threads here would go ... wtf is that! and I don't like it!
The fact that there was no "media" in those days helped ... something fierce ... today, no one can do anything without everyone having something to say ... and this is the difference between folks trying something or not ... you end up getting intimidated and when you are young, and you want to get laid, or have some fun with a few friends, being the odd one out is not gonna help you!
The "dynamics" is another word for ... I'm not writing just a song ... I'm telling a story and the music is illustrating that story, rather than follow some rock'n'roll process or idea ... or worse ... some "progressive" idea!
I think you are correct on all points
There was a climate that allowed bands to be very experimental and a bit 'out there'. It was encouraged and valued by those that made the decisions. Individuality and originality are not valued as much nowadays it would seem.
You might find it quite amusing that I had a conversation with my 16 year old Nephew recently and he was bemoaning the lack of good current music and how everything is the same now. He likes the Foo Fighters but also has a taste for classic seventies rock. I feel a bit sorry for him really. I couldn't suggest anything much other than Muse's latest album. He likes them but its not a lot to go on really.
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: December 09 2012 at 03:02
Gerinski, it's a trend observed generally and not just in prog, whether it's rock music or even R&B. This R&B song has such fantastic dynamics (and of course some incredible singing). I don't know if a contemporary R&B song has ever so much as broken through into my consciousness, let alone hook me and enchant me.
Popular music has generally got more electronic, processed and calculated over the years and Pedro may have hit on some of the reasons why. I don't know if it has to do with the media but these days, people almost seem to be afraid of listening to music that throbs with life, going from whispers to explosive bursts and everything else in between. They want music to fit into a certain comfort zone and that applies to prog rock as well. Somebody like Surrealist likes to put it down entirely to the medium but it's a broader, cultural change and hasn't spared the Third World, from where I write, in its wake either. Is it good or is it bad? I don't know. But I just like to point to the artists who deviate from the norm....if you like them, celebrate them, recommend them and maybe that encourages more artists to follow their example. In that way, maybe the balance is slightly redressed....and even if it isn't, at least there are more artists to enjoy for us.
Joined: February 18 2004
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Points: 26064
Posted: December 09 2012 at 03:03
progbethyname wrote:
richardh wrote:
[QUOTE=progbethyname] [QUOTE=richardh] [QUOTE=progbethyname]]
The Wake is one of my favourite albums. I think they 'got to the point' on that album. At the time I was blown away by the sheer intensity of it. Shades of later seventies Genesis but with almost a punk/new wave sensability. I was gutted when Nicholls left shortly afterwords... but thankfully he was to return.
Right again. NOMZAMO and ARE YOU SITTING COMFORTABLY are god awful in my opinion and I didn't even bother buying either album. Nicholls is the heart of the band and EVER was an epic return. I almost cried.
Nomzamo is their weakest album but it still has 3 or 4 good tracks but at the time I hated it admittedly.
Are You Sitting Comfortably is more 'pop prog' but is enjoyable nevertheless. Paul Menel deserves credit for keeping the band afloat at least and perhaps the other guys learnt one of two different things that stood them in good stead for future albums.
Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
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Points: 7946
Posted: December 09 2012 at 10:11
Part of the problem is sometimes a lack of variety and twists and turns. Sometimes though variety and twists and turns are present, but the guitarist and other musicians use a compressor. Sometimes this has real musical purpose, as to bring out more sustain. Most use it to pack more punch, but it makes it impossible to play real quiet. You could of course turn it off at times, but I think many if not most guitarists just leave it on, and they end up playing at comparable levels of volume whether they're playing power chords or finger picking. Then the recording engineers come along and compress everything even if the musician didn't play it that way.
I don't want to diss compression too much, because it's not without it's own value. I use it at times. My main man, Steve Hackett, historically one of the major advocates of dynamic contrast, plays with a lot of compression these days. It's valuable to him from a playing standpoint in giving him incredible and beautiful sustain. I also try to play like Frank Zappa, and for that you need to accentuate notes in different places (like with rogerthat's last YouTube link), can't do that with compression.
My point is that compression has gotten to be such a herd mentality, benefits aside, that I think it would be a step forward if we could re-introduce volume as a component to music. But, would this be a disadvantage in how the bands are viewed if they take what is essentially a step "backward" historically? I hope not.
Joined: January 04 2007
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Posted: December 09 2012 at 10:23
richardh wrote:
...
You might find it quite amusing that I had a conversation with my 16 year old Nephew recently and he was bemoaning the lack of good current music and how everything is the same now. He likes the Foo Fighters but also has a taste for classic seventies rock. I feel a bit sorry for him really. I couldn't suggest anything much other than Muse's latest album. He likes them but its not a lot to go on really.
This is the "make it or break it" point for the kid and his musical ability.
If it was me, I would try to show him, examples in this music, of what can be done with his instrument ... differently ... rather than just the notes and the stuckuplousy4count.
His ability needs to "get free" of the time constraints, and folks' comments ... and the only way he can do that is to develop his own ability to do his own thing ... and make his band, or his playing, stand out ... but if the guitarist gets mad at him, because he doesn't know what you are doing ... usually that guitarist is the problem, not your kid!
You have to teach these kids, in my book, to do some improvisations, and in the middle of them you have to throw kitchen sinks, vacuum cleaners, tomatoes, apple sauce, noise, rats, whatever, and tell them that they have to adjust their playing to each moment ... and that they have to stick together ... in the end of 15 minutes, they will be cracking up and having fun with it ... and stuff like this ... has a tendency to help the folks to learn how to listen to each other better, and eventually, it brings up the material they are doing a lot.
It is a simple exercise ... and something that the likes of krautrock might have done ... but it is not something that western culture, with its industrialist attitude towards music, is not capable of appreciating.
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted: December 10 2012 at 01:37
moshkito wrote:
richardh wrote:
...
You might find it quite amusing that I had a conversation with my 16 year old Nephew recently and he was bemoaning the lack of good current music and how everything is the same now. He likes the Foo Fighters but also has a taste for classic seventies rock. I feel a bit sorry for him really. I couldn't suggest anything much other than Muse's latest album. He likes them but its not a lot to go on really.
This is the "make it or break it" point for the kid and his musical ability.
If it was me, I would try to show him, examples in this music, of what can be done with his instrument ... differently ... rather than just the notes and the stuckuplousy4count.
His ability needs to "get free" of the time constraints, and folks' comments ... and the only way he can do that is to develop his own ability to do his own thing ... and make his band, or his playing, stand out ... but if the guitarist gets mad at him, because he doesn't know what you are doing ... usually that guitarist is the problem, not your kid!
You have to teach these kids, in my book, to do some improvisations, and in the middle of them you have to throw kitchen sinks, vacuum cleaners, tomatoes, apple sauce, noise, rats, whatever, and tell them that they have to adjust their playing to each moment ... and that they have to stick together ... in the end of 15 minutes, they will be cracking up and having fun with it ... and stuff like this ... has a tendency to help the folks to learn how to listen to each other better, and eventually, it brings up the material they are doing a lot.
It is a simple exercise ... and something that the likes of krautrock might have done ... but it is not something that western culture, with its industrialist attitude towards music, is not capable of appreciating.
Joined: February 18 2004
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Posted: December 10 2012 at 01:39
Suppers Ready is a great example but then just about any major prog release (edit - at the time) would exhibit such characterictics ie TAAB ,Starless , Close To The Edge, Trilogy and the list goes on.
[QUOTE=progbethyname] [QUOTE=richardh] [QUOTE=progbethyname]]
The Wake is one of my favourite albums. I think they 'got to the point' on that album. At the time I was blown away by the sheer intensity of it. Shades of later seventies Genesis but with almost a punk/new wave sensability. I was gutted when Nicholls left shortly afterwords... but thankfully he was to return.
Right again. NOMZAMO and ARE YOU SITTING COMFORTABLY are god awful in my opinion and I didn't even bother buying either album. Nicholls is the heart of the band and EVER was an epic return. I almost cried.
Nomzamo is their weakest album but it still has 3 or 4 good tracks but at the time I hated it admittedly.
Are You Sitting Comfortably is more 'pop prog' but is enjoyable nevertheless. Paul Menel deserves credit for keeping the band afloat at least and perhaps the other guys learnt one of two different things that stood them in good stead for future albums.
The two mid eighties IQ efforts are easiy their weakest - I played one a few months ago and was put off by the weakness of the production - the richness just seems to be missing - when you compare with the resumption of IQ post Menel -you see that IQ were rudderless - and pop-prog probably covers those two albums perfectly - sort of ATTWT/Duke/abacab analogs if you will.
But IQ - superb band that they are - are blown out of the water by bands like Galleon/Flower Kings/Spocks Beard/Transatlantic.......They kept the interest till the mighty bands I just mentioned took symphonic prog onwards and upwards....
Joined: February 18 2004
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Points: 26064
Posted: December 10 2012 at 13:29
M27Barney wrote:
richardh wrote:
progbethyname wrote:
richardh wrote:
[QUOTE=progbethyname] [QUOTE=richardh] [QUOTE=progbethyname]]
The Wake is one of my favourite albums. I think they 'got to the point' on that album. At the time I was blown away by the sheer intensity of it. Shades of later seventies Genesis but with almost a punk/new wave sensability. I was gutted when Nicholls left shortly afterwords... but thankfully he was to return.
Right again. NOMZAMO and ARE YOU SITTING COMFORTABLY are god awful in my opinion and I didn't even bother buying either album. Nicholls is the heart of the band and EVER was an epic return. I almost cried.
Nomzamo is their weakest album but it still has 3 or 4 good tracks but at the time I hated it admittedly.
Are You Sitting Comfortably is more 'pop prog' but is enjoyable nevertheless. Paul Menel deserves credit for keeping the band afloat at least and perhaps the other guys learnt one of two different things that stood them in good stead for future albums.
The two mid eighties IQ efforts are easiy their weakest - I played one a few months ago and was put off by the weakness of the production - the richness just seems to be missing - when you compare with the resumption of IQ post Menel -you see that IQ were rudderless - and pop-prog probably covers those two albums perfectly - sort of ATTWT/Duke/abacab analogs if you will.
But IQ - superb band that they are - are blown out of the water by bands like Galleon/Flower Kings/Spocks Beard/Transatlantic.......They kept the interest till the mighty bands I just mentioned took symphonic prog onwards and upwards....
Aside from the highly subjective opinion of what band one likes ( I think you may be aware I don't rate TFK at all) I don't agree with the general idea that IQ 'kept the interest' until those various bands came along. What about Anglagard , Anekdoten, Par Lindh etc that were around in the 90's?
Symph prog pretty much died in the early eighties and its offshoot 'neo prog' emerged. It was the Scandanavian bands (inc TFK) that lead a revival of the original movement. Par Lindh Project 'Gothic Impressions' was actually conceived in the 70's but according to the sleevenotes no record companies were interested.
My argument is that the likes of IQ, Marillion and Arena continued with their strand of prog while an actual symph prog revival occured when the time was right and in parallel. Neo prog and Symph prog both happily co exist today. I don't think IQ should have an inferiority complex though.
The differences as I see it
Neo prog - harder sound ,more emotional and grounded in style
Symph prog - more complexity and draws (as you would expect) a lot more inspiration from classical music.Doesn't need to get to the point and doesn't have to be that emotional (neo does).
[QUOTE=progbethyname] [QUOTE=richardh] [QUOTE=progbethyname]] The Wake is one of my favourite albums. I think they 'got to the point' on that album. At the time I was blown away by the sheer intensity of it. Shades of later seventies Genesis but with almost a punk/new wave sensability. I was gutted when Nicholls left shortly afterwords... but thankfully he was to return.
Right again. NOMZAMO and ARE YOU SITTING COMFORTABLY are god awful in my opinion and I didn't even bother buying either album. Nicholls is the heart of the band and EVER was an epic return. I almost cried.
Nomzamo is their weakest album but it still has 3 or 4 good tracks but at the time I hated it admittedly.
Are You Sitting Comfortably is more 'pop prog' but is enjoyable nevertheless. Paul Menel deserves credit for keeping the band afloat at least and perhaps the other guys learnt one of two different things that stood them in good stead for future albums.
The two mid eighties IQ efforts are easiy their weakest - I played one a few months ago and was put off by the weakness of the production - the richness just seems to be missing - when you compare with the resumption of IQ post Menel -you see that IQ were rudderless - and pop-prog probably covers those two albums perfectly - sort of ATTWT/Duke/abacab analogs if you will.
But IQ - superb band that they are - are blown out of the water by bands like Galleon/Flower Kings/Spocks Beard/Transatlantic.......They kept the interest till the mighty bands I just mentioned took symphonic prog onwards and upwards....
Aside from the highly subjective opinion of what band one likes ( I think you may be aware I don't rate TFK at all) I don't agree with the general idea that IQ 'kept the interest' until those various bands came along. What about Anglagard , Anekdoten, Par Lindh etc that were around in the 90's?
Symph prog pretty much died in the early eighties and its offshoot 'neo prog' emerged. It was the Scandanavian bands (inc TFK) that lead a revival of the original movement. Par Lindh Project 'Gothic Impressions' was actually conceived in the 70's but according to the sleevenotes no record companies were interested.
My argument is that the likes of IQ, Marillion and Arena continued with their strand of prog while an actual symph prog revival occured when the time was right and in parallel. Neo prog and Symph prog both happily co exist today. I don't think IQ should have an inferiority complex though.
The differences as I see it
Neo prog - harder sound ,more emotional and grounded in style
Symph prog - more complexity and draws (as you would expect) a lot more inspiration from classical music.Doesn't need to get to the point and doesn't have to be that emotional (neo does).
I really can't disagree with anything you have said here. Ok....maybe the only thing is that you felt Nomzamo was slightly tolerable. That's it. . I definitely see exactly eye to eye with you on this discussion and yeah, classic symphonic prog died when GENESIS made A TRICK OF THE TAIL. So 1976 is when symphonic prog evolved to Neo. I'm glad it did. I love the holy trinity of the Neo prog fab 3....ARENA, Marillion(fish era) and IQ. I could maybe through GALAHAD and PALLAS in their for a quintet. :)
Joined: February 18 2004
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Posted: December 11 2012 at 01:05
^ never really liked Pallas. Saw them play live about 10 years ago at a prog festival and there were a group of fans in front of the stage going absolutely bananas for them while the rest wondered why. One of those bands that divide opinion I presume. I only recently bought my first Galahad album (the live double). Still digesting it. They seem a bit 'second division' compared to IQ and Marillion (and Arena) imo.
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
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Posted: December 11 2012 at 02:46
progbethyname wrote:
I love the holy trinity of the Neo prog fab 3....ARENA, Marillion(fish era) and IQ. I could maybe through GALAHAD and PALLAS in their for a quintet. :)
Pendragon should be in the list before Galahad and Pallas imo.
Aye, Pendragon & Pallas - most excellent (especially the latest Pallas XXV - thats a marvellous effort)...Par Lindh - Gothic Impressions - absolutely superb CD - but a lot of people will be put off by the Priestly singer - it has some magnificent Church Organ - very Hard to place that CD though - it's not neo-prog thats for certain......
My copy of GI , is signed by PL.....probably coz I bought his entire back catologue from his web-site in a manic burst of CD buying....
Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
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Posted: December 11 2012 at 21:30
Gerinski wrote:
progbethyname wrote:
I love the holy trinity of the Neo prog fab 3....ARENA, Marillion(fish era) and IQ. I could maybe through GALAHAD and PALLAS in their for a quintet. :)
Pendragon should be in the list before Galahad and Pallas imo.
I have one Pendragon album, The World. I listened to it once quite awhile ago and I didn't like it. I found it boring. The guitar work didn't seem all that interesting. Should I give it another chance, or are there other Pendragon albums I'd be better off looking into?
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Posted: December 11 2012 at 22:03
Gallifrey wrote:
I personally think symphonic prog is a thing of the past and bands should move on. But then again, it has its place, because many fans just want to hear new versions of an old style without much 'progression'.
I think it's evident in the top album lists of recent years that many of the top albums haven't been symphonic. Even the most recent one, Echolyn's newest, is still a decent move forward.
There was a thread a few months ago about Steve Wilson commenting (a few years ago, still), about how bands should stop trying to emulate bands from the past, and move forward with their music. I agree with him, although it could be argued that some of his music is hardly moving forward.
I strongly disagree
We listen prog, we shouldn't fall in the mistake of Pop stablished fashioon sense.
A healthy genre doesn't have to last 2 or 3 years, that's what the producers and labels sold us in order to create ephemerous artists who sell for a couple of years, gain millions for the label and vanish as fast as they appeared.
In Classical music, genres lasted centuries,
- Blues Based Rock is at least 60 years old,
- Hard Rock has 50 years (at least)
- Metal is about 30 something years old,
- Pop has at least 50 years
Why should Symphonic had to vanish after 1978?
Punk tried to destroy it and has almost vanished.
Now...All Symphonic sounds as in the 70's?,
Please 99% of bands are not clones of the 70's pioneers, Symphonic is richer than ever, when it appeared it was mainly Rock with Classical arrangements and some fragments taken from Grieg, Bach or Mussorgsky, today we have
- Eastern Europe Symphonic that conbines delicate ethnic music from their countries
- Latin American bands like Bacamarte that are simply unique.
- USA who have added Heavy Prog and even Avant Garde to the sound.
A 40 something years old genre is young, and musicians have a lot to offer, of course some artists will remind us of Yes and Genesis, because all play the same genre called symphonic, with many common characteristins in the 70's and today
It's the case of any Prog Metal band that will remind of the pioneers of the genre, because all of them play METAL.
A few minutes ago I added SoulengineE from Italy, who have nothing in common with Banco or PFM, to the point that they were not accepted in RPI, they are unique, fresh, Symphonic hasn't grown dated, by the contrary, is fresher with the new influences that have been added.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 11 2012 at 22:11
Joined: December 25 2011
Location: internet
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Points: 2549
Posted: December 11 2012 at 22:07
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Gallifrey wrote:
I personally think symphonic prog is a thing of the past and bands should move on. But then again, it has its place, because many fans just want to hear new versions of an old style without much 'progression'.
I think it's evident in the top album lists of recent years that many of the top albums haven't been symphonic. Even the most recent one, Echolyn's newest, is still a decent move forward.
There was a thread a few months ago about Steve Wilson commenting (a few years ago, still), about how bands should stop trying to emulate bands from the past, and move forward with their music. I agree with him, although it could be argued that some of his music is hardly moving forward.
I strongly disagree
We listen prog, we shouldn't fall in the mistake of Pop stablished fashioon sense.
A healthy genre doesn't have to last 2 or 3 years, that's what the producers and labels sold us in order to create ephemerous artists who create for a couple of years, sell a,lot and vanish as fast as they appeared.
In Classical music, genres lasted centuries,
- Blues Based Rock is at least 60 years old,
- Hard Rock has 50 years (at least)
- Metal is about 30 something years old,
- Pop has at least 50 years
Why should Symphonic had to vanish after 1978?
Punk tried to destroy it and has almost vanished.
Now...All Symphonic sounds as in the 70's?,
Please 99% of bands are not clones of the 70's pioneers, Symphonic is richer than ever, when it appeared it was mainly Rock with Classical arrangements and some pieces taken fgriom Grieg, Bach or Mussorgsky, today we have
- Eastern Europe Symphonic that conbines delicate ethnic music from their countries
- Latin American bands like Bacamarte that are simply unique.
- USA who have added Heavy Prog and even Avant Garde to the sound.
A 40 something years old genre is young, and musicians have a lot to offer, of course some artists will remind us of Yes and Genesis, because all play the same genre called symphonic, with many common characteristins in the 70's and today
It's the case of any Prog Metal band that will remind of the pioneers of the genre, because all of them play METAL.
A few minutes ago I added SoulengineE from Italy, who have nothing in common with Banco or PFM, to the point that they were not accepted in RPI, they are unique, fresh, Symphonic hasn't grown dated, by the contrary, is fresher with the new influences that have been added.
Joined: June 10 2011
Location: Colorado, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4671
Posted: December 11 2012 at 22:11
HackettFan wrote:
Gerinski wrote:
progbethyname wrote:
I love the holy trinity of the Neo prog fab 3....ARENA, Marillion(fish era) and IQ. I could maybe through GALAHAD and PALLAS in their for a quintet. :)
Pendragon should be in the list before Galahad and Pallas imo.
I have one Pendragon album, The World. I listened to it once quite awhile ago and I didn't like it. I found it boring. The guitar work didn't seem all that interesting. Should I give it another chance, or are there other Pendragon albums I'd be better off looking into?
Pure and Passion, their latest two, are their best IMO. Highly recommended, even if you don't care for their earlier work.
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Symphonic in the 00's, an advantage or a handicap?
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moshkito wrote:
. I definitely see exactly eye to eye with you on this discussion and yeah, classic symphonic prog died when GENESIS made A TRICK OF THE TAIL. So 1976 is when symphonic prog evolved to Neo. I'm glad it did. I love the holy trinity of the Neo prog fab 3....ARENA, Marillion(fish era) and IQ. I could maybe through GALAHAD and PALLAS in their for a quintet. :)
