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Topic ClosedSymphonic in the 00's, an advantage or a handicap?

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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2012 at 22:14
Originally posted by infocat infocat wrote:

Pure and Passion, their latest two, are their best IMO.  Highly recommended, even if you don't care for their earlier work.

GREAT EXAMPLE

Pendragon is a band that evolved, since Believe they changed but with Pure, they ceased to be Neo Prog, don't remind me of their great albums as Masquerade Overture, but brought a breeze of fresh air to Neo Prog.

And Neo Prog is 32 years old, but keeps evolving.

Iván
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2012 at 22:40
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

I love the holy trinity of the Neo prog fab 3....ARENA, Marillion(fish era) and IQ. I could maybe through GALAHAD and PALLAS in their for a quintet. :)

Pendragon should be in the list before Galahad and Pallas imo.

I have one Pendragon album, The World. I listened to it once quite awhile ago and I didn't like it. I found it boring. The guitar work didn't seem all that interesting. Should I give it another chance, or are there other Pendragon albums I'd be better off looking into?
In the context of stereotype Neo their first album The Jewel is perhaps the most representative, sharing similarities with IQ's Tales From The Lush Attic or Twelfth Night's Fact And Fiction, it's quite upbeat, typical Neo but more poppy and less symphonic than early Marillion or early Arena.
 
Then they went into a more Pink Floyd-ish period of which The World is a good example, if you found it boring I guess this is not your cup of tea but The Masquerade Overture is another good album from this period.
 
In their last two albums Pure and Passion they have become heavier, a bit similar path to what Arena have taken, personally they are not my favourites but if you like more energetic music you may like them.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2012 at 23:13
Originally posted by infocat infocat wrote:


Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

I love the holy trinity of the Neo prog fab 3....ARENA, Marillion(fish era) and IQ. I could maybe through GALAHAD and PALLAS in their for a quintet. :)

Pendragon should be in the list before Galahad and Pallas imo.

I have one Pendragon album, The World. I listened to it once quite awhile ago and I didn't like it. I found it boring. The guitar work didn't seem all that interesting. Should I give it another chance, or are there other Pendragon albums I'd be better off looking into?
Pure and Passion, their latest two, are their best IMO.  Highly recommended, even if you don't care for their earlier work.

Thanks! I'll definitely check it out.
I'll give The World another listen too. I'm mindful that one listen isn't often enough to make judgements on Prog albums.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2012 at 23:24
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

I love the holy trinity of the Neo prog fab 3....ARENA, Marillion(fish era) and IQ. I could maybe through GALAHAD and PALLAS in their for a quintet. :)

Pendragon should be in the list before Galahad and Pallas imo.
I have one Pendragon album, The World. I listened to it once quite awhile ago and I didn't like it. I found it boring. The guitar work didn't seem all that interesting. Should I give it another chance, or are there other Pendragon albums I'd be better off looking into?

In the context of stereotype Neo their first album The Jewel is perhaps the most representative, sharing similarities with IQ's Tales From The Lush Attic or Twelfth Night's Fact And Fiction, it's quite upbeat, typical Neo but more poppy and less symphonic than early Marillion or early Arena.
 

Then they went into a more Pink Floyd-ish period of which The World is a good example, if you found it boring I guess this is not your cup of tea but The Masquerade Overture is another good album from this period.

 

In their last two albums Pure and Passion they have become heavier, a bit similar path to what Arena have taken, personally they are not my favourites but if you like more energetic music you may like them.  

The Jewel and Pure and Passion it is then. An old one and a newer one.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2012 at 01:34
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Aye, Pendragon & Pallas - most excellent (especially the latest Pallas XXV - thats a marvellous effort)...Par Lindh - Gothic Impressions - absolutely superb CD - but a lot of people will be put off by the Priestly singer - it has some magnificent Church Organ - very Hard to place that CD though - it's not neo-prog thats for certain......
My copy of GI , is signed by PL.....probably coz I bought his entire back catologue from his web-site in a manic burst of CD buying....
I bought Gothic Impressions in 1995 at the 25th ELP anniversary convention in Birmingham. The artwork looked beautifull and it had a little sign next to it 'is this Brain Salad Surgery for the 90's?'. It wasn't but still very lovely symphonic prog. Not 'neo' but part of the retro prog revival of the time that was coming from Scandanavia. The singer was Par Lindh although Magda Berg featured on one of the songs and then became the full time singer for the next 2 albums.
Gothic Impressions also has a lovely little booklet. Interesting to see all the people involved in making it including a certain Mr Stolt.Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2012 at 06:36
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Gallifrey Gallifrey wrote:

I personally think symphonic prog is a thing of the past and bands should move on. But then again, it has its place, because many fans just want to hear new versions of an old style without much 'progression'.

I think it's evident in the top album lists of recent years that many of the top albums haven't been symphonic. Even the most recent one, Echolyn's newest, is still a decent move forward.

There was a thread a few months ago about Steve Wilson commenting (a few years ago, still), about how bands should stop trying to emulate bands from the past, and move forward with their music. I agree with him, although it could be argued that some of his music is hardly moving forward.

I strongly disagree

We listen prog, we shouldn't fall in the mistake of Pop stablished fashioon sense.

A healthy genre doesn't have to last 2 or 3 years, that's what the  producers and labels sold us in order to create ephemerous artists who sell for a couple of years, gain millions for the label  and vanish as fast as they appeared.

In Classical music, genres lasted centuries, 

- Blues Based Rock is at least 60 years old, 
- Hard Rock has 50 years (at least)
- Metal is about 30 something years old, 
- Pop has at least 50 years 

Why should Symphonic had to vanish after 1978?

Punk tried to destroy it and has almost vanished.

Now...All Symphonic sounds as in the 70's?, 

Please 99% of bands are not clones of the 70's pioneers, Symphonic is richer than ever, when it appeared it was mainly Rock with Classical arrangements and some fragments taken from Grieg, Bach or Mussorgsky, today we have

- Eastern Europe Symphonic that conbines delicate ethnic music from their countries
- Latin American bands like Bacamarte that are simply unique.
- USA who have added Heavy Prog and even Avant Garde to the sound.

A 40 something years old genre is young, and musicians have a lot to offer, of course some artists will remind us of Yes and Genesis, because all play the same genre called symphonic, with many common characteristins in the 70's and today

It's the case of any Prog Metal band that will remind of the pioneers of the genre, because all of them play METAL.

A few minutes ago I added SoulengineE from Italy, who have nothing in common with Banco or PFM, to the point that they were not accepted in RPI, they are unique, fresh, Symphonic hasn't grown dated, by the contrary, is fresher with the new influences that have been added.

Iván

Can't disagree with any point made there Iván a lot of mud gets thrown at the most bombastic/symphonic prog bands who are producing today....Lets hope that 2013 has even more pomposity and symphonic themes that would even make the hairs on my red-kneed tarantula stand up like little antennas to heaven......
Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2012 at 08:08
Yep, fashions come and go, but good music can never be a thing of the past.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2012 at 12:01
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


...

You might find it quite amusing that I had a conversation with my 16 year old Nephew recently and he was bemoaning the lack of good current music and how everything is the same now. He likes the Foo Fighters but also has a taste for classic seventies rock. I feel a bit sorry for him really. I couldn't suggest anything much other than Muse's latest album. He likes them but its not a lot to go on really.

 

This is the "make it or break it" point for the kid and his musical ability.

 

If it was me, I would try to show him, examples in this music, of what can be done with his instrument ... differently ... rather than just the notes and the stuckuplousy4count.

 

His ability needs to "get free" of the time constraints, and folks' comments ... and the only way he can do that is to develop his own ability to do his own thing ... and make his band, or his playing, stand out ... but if the guitarist gets mad at him, because he doesn't know what you are doing ... usually that guitarist is the problem, not your kid!

 

You have to teach these kids, in my book, to do some improvisations, and in the middle of them you have to throw kitchen sinks, vacuum cleaners, tomatoes, apple sauce, noise, rats, whatever, and tell them that they have to adjust their playing to each moment ... and that they have to stick together ... in the end of 15 minutes, they will be cracking up and having fun with it ... and stuff like this ... has a tendency to help the folks to learn how to listen to each other better, and eventually, it brings up the material they are doing a lot.

 

It is a simple exercise ... and something that the likes of krautrock might have done ... but it is not something that western culture, with its industrialist attitude towards music, is not capable of appreciating.


didn't say he was a musicianWink


Richard! Not to worry. The ears are still young and like every other body part we have, the ears will go through a gradual maturity process. I have hope for your little neph. Foo Fighters? Ouch. That probably eats you up a bit I can imagine.
It is actually a very hard thing to introduce someone to even the quality world that is prog, evolution of each genre aside of course. If your nephew is listening to foo fighters (ouch again) to get him to make a listening transition to say, Neo prog may be quite difficult. Try easing him into some classic Rock or crossover prog like DIRE STRAIGHTS or SUPERTRAMP. It might work. :). I wish you well
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2012 at 12:21
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

^ never really liked Pallas. Saw them play live about 10 years ago at a prog festival and there were a group of fans in front of the stage going absolutely bananas for them while the rest wondered why. One of those bands that divide opinion I presume. I only recently bought my first Galahad album (the live double). Still digesting it. They seem a bit 'second division' compared to IQ and Marillion (and Arena) imo.


GALAHAD. their sound maybe hit or miss if you are a hardcore fan of Neo prog in general. They boarder along Dream Theater sound territory sometimes and that may discourage some people because too many bands today, especially in prog metal try to take after DT. I am a huge fan of dt, but I don't want to hear traces of their musical style in everything I listen to in the prog metal/Neo prog genres. No thanks. Galahad is a quality prog band that has an evolutionized symphonic prog sound. I do give them respect. EMPIRES, YEAR ZERO and BATTLE SCARS are quite good.

As for Pallas. Again. These guys a huge enigma. They have some brilliant albums and some terrible ones. Their latest effort was not as wonderful sounding as their previous effort DREAMS OF MEN, which in my opinion is a masterpiece and a truly remarkable showing of how symphonic prog has really evolved. Great example. They even include some choir orchestrations in the music as well. Very nice touch. Give that a spin in you can ASAP. I don't think you will be Dissapointed
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2012 at 21:44
There are worse bands that kid could be listening to than The Foo Fighters. Sometimes it's best to introduce them slowly, with bands that are kinda similar. Might be why a band like Porcupine Tree is so popular; they're arguably the best band to get into prog with because they have so much alt-rock/metal in their current sound. Just like Dream Theater are a good gateway band for fans of metal and hard rock, like me when I first discovered DT.

Showing a Foo Fighters fan Marillion, Genesis, or The Flower Kings is probably not going to change their mind about music. Think about the mind set of these 14-17 year olds who have little to no exposure to "good" music in their lives, let alone progressive rock.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 01:35
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

^ never really liked Pallas. Saw them play live about 10 years ago at a prog festival and there were a group of fans in front of the stage going absolutely bananas for them while the rest wondered why. One of those bands that divide opinion I presume. I only recently bought my first Galahad album (the live double). Still digesting it. They seem a bit 'second division' compared to IQ and Marillion (and Arena) imo.


GALAHAD. their sound maybe hit or miss if you are a hardcore fan of Neo prog in general. They boarder along Dream Theater sound territory sometimes and that may discourage some people because too many bands today, especially in prog metal try to take after DT. I am a huge fan of dt, but I don't want to hear traces of their musical style in everything I listen to in the prog metal/Neo prog genres. No thanks. Galahad is a quality prog band that has an evolutionized symphonic prog sound. I do give them respect. EMPIRES, YEAR ZERO and BATTLE SCARS are quite good.

As for Pallas. Again. These guys a huge enigma. They have some brilliant albums and some terrible ones. Their latest effort was not as wonderful sounding as their previous effort DREAMS OF MEN, which in my opinion is a masterpiece and a truly remarkable showing of how symphonic prog has really evolved. Great example. They even include some choir orchestrations in the music as well. Very nice touch. Give that a spin in you can ASAP. I don't think you will be Dissapointed
 Thanks for the recommendations. I think I will give that Pallas album a go.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 01:42
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

There are worse bands that kid could be listening to than The Foo Fighters. Sometimes it's best to introduce them slowly, with bands that are kinda similar. Might be why a band like Porcupine Tree is so popular; they're arguably the best band to get into prog with because they have so much alt-rock/metal in their current sound. Just like Dream Theater are a good gateway band for fans of metal and hard rock, like me when I first discovered DT.

Showing a Foo Fighters fan Marillion, Genesis, or The Flower Kings is probably not going to change their mind about music. Think about the mind set of these 14-17 year olds who have little to no exposure to "good" music in their lives, let alone progressive rock.
I don't think he would be that impressed as you say about full blown prog rock bands. He likes Muse (but not as much as me) but he does also like classic rock such as The Who. His Stepdad has Planetrock radio on a lot of the time so that has helped a little but what he wants are newer bands making this sort of music and it doesn't really exist sadly.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 08:37
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


...

You might find it quite amusing that I had a conversation with my 16 year old Nephew recently and he was bemoaning the lack of good current music and how everything is the same now. He likes the Foo Fighters but also has a taste for classic seventies rock. I feel a bit sorry for him really. I couldn't suggest anything much other than Muse's latest album. He likes them but its not a lot to go on really.

 
I'm surprised that you didn't suggest anything but Muse. Confused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 12:51
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

^ never really liked Pallas. Saw them play live about 10 years ago at a prog festival and there were a group of fans in front of the stage going absolutely bananas for them while the rest wondered why. One of those bands that divide opinion I presume. I only recently bought my first Galahad album (the live double). Still digesting it. They seem a bit 'second division' compared to IQ and Marillion (and Arena) imo.
GALAHAD. their sound maybe hit or miss if you are a hardcore fan of Neo prog in general. They boarder along Dream Theater sound territory sometimes and that may discourage some people because too many bands today, especially in prog metal try to take after DT. I am a huge fan of dt, but I don't want to hear traces of their musical style in everything I listen to in the prog metal/Neo prog genres. No thanks. Galahad is a quality prog band that has an evolutionized symphonic prog sound. I do give them respect. EMPIRES, YEAR ZERO and BATTLE SCARS are quite good. As for Pallas. Again. These guys a huge enigma. They have some brilliant albums and some terrible ones. Their latest effort was not as wonderful sounding as their previous effort DREAMS OF MEN, which in my opinion is a masterpiece and a truly remarkable showing of how symphonic prog has really evolved. Great example. They even include some choir orchestrations in the music as well. Very nice touch. Give that a spin in you can ASAP. I don't think you will be Dissapointed

 Thanks for the recommendations. I think I will give that Pallas album a go.


No problem my friend. Let me know what you think. The opening track is brilliant and INVINCIBLE is got a lot of power and feeling. There is a few really great build ups in that song. I think you'll love it. You know your Neo prog, so you are definitely honna pick up on the greatness of those tracks. :)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 12:57
I just also want to say that GALAHAD's album EMPIRES NEVER LAST could very well been the best Neo prog album of 2007. I think it's close to a 5 star album. It's a very good showing how symphonic prog has grown on a heavier scale. Essential to a prog metal collection?? I think so. You may be sorry to be missing that album in your stack of CDs.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2012 at 09:00
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


...

You might find it quite amusing that I had a conversation with my 16 year old Nephew recently and he was bemoaning the lack of good current music and how everything is the same now. He likes the Foo Fighters but also has a taste for classic seventies rock. I feel a bit sorry for him really. I couldn't suggest anything much other than Muse's latest album. He likes them but its not a lot to go on really.

 
I'm surprised that you didn't suggest anything but Muse. Confused
Off the top of my head I was struggling to think of anything else
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2012 at 09:05
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

^ never really liked Pallas. Saw them play live about 10 years ago at a prog festival and there were a group of fans in front of the stage going absolutely bananas for them while the rest wondered why. One of those bands that divide opinion I presume. I only recently bought my first Galahad album (the live double). Still digesting it. They seem a bit 'second division' compared to IQ and Marillion (and Arena) imo.
GALAHAD. their sound maybe hit or miss if you are a hardcore fan of Neo prog in general. They boarder along Dream Theater sound territory sometimes and that may discourage some people because too many bands today, especially in prog metal try to take after DT. I am a huge fan of dt, but I don't want to hear traces of their musical style in everything I listen to in the prog metal/Neo prog genres. No thanks. Galahad is a quality prog band that has an evolutionized symphonic prog sound. I do give them respect. EMPIRES, YEAR ZERO and BATTLE SCARS are quite good. As for Pallas. Again. These guys a huge enigma. They have some brilliant albums and some terrible ones. Their latest effort was not as wonderful sounding as their previous effort DREAMS OF MEN, which in my opinion is a masterpiece and a truly remarkable showing of how symphonic prog has really evolved. Great example. They even include some choir orchestrations in the music as well. Very nice touch. Give that a spin in you can ASAP. I don't think you will be Dissapointed

 Thanks for the recommendations. I think I will give that Pallas album a go.


No problem my friend. Let me know what you think. The opening track is brilliant and INVINCIBLE is got a lot of power and feeling. There is a few really great build ups in that song. I think you'll love it. You know your Neo prog, so you are definitely honna pick up on the greatness of those tracks. :)
 
Yep you are bang on right. I should have picked up on it earlier as its Pallas highest rated album on PA and easy to understand why.Powerfull modern neo prog with strong symphonic elements.I like the scope of the music which feels cimematic.Approve 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2012 at 09:18
Neither.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2012 at 15:59
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


...

You might find it quite amusing that I had a conversation with my 16 year old Nephew recently and he was bemoaning the lack of good current music and how everything is the same now. He likes the Foo Fighters but also has a taste for classic seventies rock. I feel a bit sorry for him really. I couldn't suggest anything much other than Muse's latest album. He likes them but its not a lot to go on really.

 
I'm surprised that you didn't suggest anything but Muse. Confused
Off the top of my head I was struggling to think of anything else


He might like some modern Rush.  Counterparts, Test for Echo, Vapor Trails, Snakes and Arrows, and Clockwork Angels all have both classic and alternative rock elements.
In blood, he's writing the lyrics of a brand new tune.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2012 at 18:23
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


...

You might find it quite amusing that I had a conversation with my 16 year old Nephew recently and he was bemoaning the lack of good current music and how everything is the same now. He likes the Foo Fighters but also has a taste for classic seventies rock. I feel a bit sorry for him really. I couldn't suggest anything much other than Muse's latest album. He likes them but its not a lot to go on really.

 
I'm surprised that you didn't suggest anything but Muse. Confused
Off the top of my head I was struggling to think of anything else


He might like some modern Rush.  Counterparts, Test for Echo, Vapor Trails, Snakes and Arrows, and Clockwork Angels all have both classic and alternative rock elements.


There are plenty of artists making good and interesting music these days. My personal favorites are Radiohead, Wilco, Grizzly Bear, Midlake, The Dodos, Sufjan Stevens, Sigur Ros, and Fleet Foxes. For him, specifically, you could suggest The Mars Volta.
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