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Simple statistics, misconceptions disproved.

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Thandrus View Drop Down
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    Posted: December 03 2012 at 05:02
Did a simple search in ProgArchives symphonic prog section to see which country had the most symphonic prog bands. See results below in the photo attached.

I was as amazed as some of you might get. The results proved wrong the most rooted prog misconception according to which UK was the center of symphonic prog. As you can see here, there are almost two times more symphonic prog bands in US than in UK. Germany has just as many symphonic prog bands as UK. Could what we've thought all this time be just a matter of exposure? Share your thoughts, please!

P.S. This doesn't even take into the account all the Italian prog bands, who were mostly of symphonic variety.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 05:29
Beyond Kansas, can you name me any US, or for that matter German, Symph Prog bands that have remotely had the level of influence that Genesis, ELP, Yes, Renaissance, et all have had?

Didn't think so.

Besides, since the 80's most British prog bands have ended up being classed as Neo-Prog, where as the Americans have definitely concentrated more on Symph. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thandrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 05:52
Sleeper, let's say I can name quite a few :) I agree about influence, but could / couldn't this be more a matter of exposure than of quality difference?

Yeah, Neo Prog "steal" does have a role, but still, even considering this the result is:

UK: 40 + 96 = 136
US: 76 + 67 = 143
Germany: 40 + 38 = 78

Germany's out, but US still leading.


Edited by Thandrus - December 03 2012 at 05:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 06:32
Or,  never mind the quality feel the width.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 06:47
Who is the US or European Genesis, Yes, ELP etc..??

Starcastle? Glass Hammer? Spocks Beard? PFM?    

Love those bands, but I think the point to be made is that England IS the home of symphonic prog rock in terms of what that particular subgenre spawned and influenced globally.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 06:49
It makes sense that The US have more. Much huger population equals more varieties of everything under the sun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 07:25
Originally posted by Thandrus Thandrus wrote:

Did a simple search in ProgArchives symphonic prog section to see which country had the most symphonic prog bands. See results below in the photo attached.

...
 
Considering the size of each country and the number of its population, those numbers are way off and simply a top ten number that is not indicative of a whole lot of much ... except bad statistics to feed the sadistic mind of the populist ideals!  Embarrassed   
 
Wink
 
If you have 150 out of 200 million people instead of 150 out of 40 million (whatevuuuuhhh!!!) ... the number becomes almost trivial and in America, and massive in Germany or England!
 
To me, this is the hard part of the "top ten" mentality ... you see the numbers without a perspective of what they mean ... and this is exactly what I mean that when London sells 100k copies of something it becomes a hit that we are supposed to hear and buy, and the same in NY, or Tokyo ... but the rest of the world has not heard it, or cares about it ... and it "forces you" to listen and "appreciate" the new Number One ... which, of course, is only happening in one place, not others! Nashville rarely cares, for example!
 
Without trying to sound smug, or bad, this is exactly why we need to get rid of the top ten mentality in progressive music ... it teaches you to look at the wrong thing ... popularity ... instead of the value of the music itself. That, in no way, is to state that the public does not have good taste ... if that were the case, Janis, Jimi, Jim and many others would never have been heard ... but it spoke a lot for the abilities and their music ... and you have to see that scale and how it balances out.
 
You can see how we can get tired of the NY media, or London media, or Tokyo media (we ignore that one really good!), telling us what is best and what is superior! Specially when there is so much more music everywhere in the world that those folks, and you and I, have never heard ... or eever will bother to hear!
 
If I may suggest, also be a "progressive" listener and "progressive" thinker ... a lot of the music and its variety and other work in other countries, will make a lot more sense to your palate! The beauty is endless. It's almost like saying that Swedish women are ugly, or Russian women, or Thai women, or Australian women ... and you know that is really full of it!
 
Some statistics are worth their salt ... but they need to have PERSPECTIVE. In a relational sense, your statistic would not go very far in college, btw! A professor at UCSB in Sociology 101 used to get everyone to create these statistical everythings on the first week, and then proceed to shoot them all down ... out loud in front of the whole class ... so you got the idea ... that numbers are an ADVERTISING TOOL ... not necessarily a scientific tool!
 
Remember that next time you go see the latest greatest movie that made 100 Million!


Edited by moshkito - December 03 2012 at 07:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thellama73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 08:06
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

It makes sense that The US have more. Much huger population equals more varieties of everything under the sun.


This is what I was going to say. If you weight by population, the U.K. would come out far ahead of the U.S. and Germany. Per capita, the U.K. has the most Symphonic Prog bands.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omphaloskepsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 08:21
How does Sweden fare when it comes down to prog bands  per capita?   I know of towns in Finland and Sweden with less than 20,000 people,  with five or more prog bands mentioned on prog archives.   Wikipedia says:

Sweden also has a prominent choral music tradition, deriving in part from the cultural importance of Swedish folk songs. In fact, out of a population of 9.5 million, it is estimated that five to six hundred thousand people sing in choirs.[171]

In 2007, with over 800 million dollars in revenue, Sweden was the third largest music exporter in the world and surpassed only by the US and the UK.[172

 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thandrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 08:23
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Who is the US or European Genesis, Yes, ELP etc..??

Starcastle? Glass Hammer? Spocks Beard? PFM?    

Love those bands, but I think the point to be made is that England IS the home of symphonic prog rock in terms of what that particular subgenre spawned and influenced globally.

Well, no need of specific analogs - ... but when US has a wonderband (IMO, of course) like Maelstrom almost unknown, this points to some kind of prejudice born out of popular misconception against US symph. And who knows
how many more bands we have to hear and fully appreciate!

PFM example is a bit irrelevant IMO, because if we touch Italy, we have to stand against  the most massive symphonic avalanche there has ever been LOL

Yes, nobody argues that UK is a home for symphonic prog - that's what indeed it is; but there could be just as many symphonic ideas over the Atlantic - at least so many just not to deem American symphonic prog a priori second-rate 
Smile

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

It makes sense that The US have more. Much huger population equals more varieties of everything under the sun.

Well yes, population size matters - but when we talk about country's prog input we usually mean it in absolute terms, not relative to country's size; With former approach Belgium could be viewed as one of the European prog leaders, relative to their area / population - which is absolutely not the case.

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

If you have 150 out of 200 million people instead of 150 out of 40 million (whatevuuuuhhh!!!) ... the number becomes almost trivial and in America, and massive in Germany or England!

Yes but again, we measure input as an absolute term, not per capita Wink

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

It's almost like saying that Swedish women are ugly, or Russian women, or Thai women, or Australian women ... and you know that is really full of it!

Sadly that's a kind of approach I've often encountered towards American symphonic prog Confused

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Some statistics are worth their salt ... but they need to have PERSPECTIVE. In a relational sense, your statistic would not go very far in college, btw! A professor at UCSB in Sociology 101 used to get everyone to create these statistical everythings on the first week, and then proceed to shoot them all down ... out loud in front of the whole class ... so you got the idea ... that numbers are an ADVERTISING TOOL ... not necessarily a scientific tool!

Sure, it was a simple search that quite amazed and a bit confused me. The PERSPECTIVE and moral of it (for me, at least) is that much of US symph is thrown into the wastebin and regarded as a second-tier. And yeah, most of it is very unpopular too, judging by review numbers - so, saying again, it points to some popular misconception angainst it, not the opinion formed by thorough investigation Wink


Edited by Thandrus - December 03 2012 at 08:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 08:52
This just goes to show you the truth in the saying Mark Twain popularized:

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tamijo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 10:00
They also have more Golf players in US than in Europe.
But they loose.Wink
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 10:33
With all due respect, your "statistics" (if you can call a simple count that) is alright as long as you agree that it's pretty meaningless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thandrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 10:42
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

This just goes to show you the truth in the saying Mark Twain popularized:

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

With all due respect, your "statistics" (if you can call a simple count that) is alright as long as you agree that it's pretty meaningless.

Can you tell me WHY? Besides, the point I made was that US symph at least requires much closer attention. This is its primal meaning; Any additional meaning will be available as / if it gets more exposure LOL

Originally posted by Tamijo Tamijo wrote:

They also have more Golf players in US than in Europe.
But they loose.

... but not because Tiger Woods is second to any one Big smile


Edited by Thandrus - December 03 2012 at 11:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 11:22
Hungary has few bands and all of them almost symphonic...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 11:38
Originally posted by Thandrus Thandrus wrote:


Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

With all due respect, your "statistics" (if you can call a simple count that) is alright as long as you agree that it's pretty meaningless.

Can you tell me WHY? Besides, the point I made was that US symph at least requires much closer attention. This is its primal meaning; Any additional meaning will be available as / if it gets more exposure LOL 
Well that didn't seem to be your point in the OP. Your statistics merely revealed the fact that there are more US bands listed in PA than UK bands, nothing more and nothing less (that's what I mean by "pretty meaningless", just a numerical count without any references has an extremely limited information value), but the point you made of this fact was
 
Originally posted by Thandrus Thandrus wrote:

The results proved wrong the most rooted prog misconception according to which UK was the center of symphonic prog.
which is not a valid inference from that fact.
I sense that you now understand that you just revealed that there are more US bands in PA than UK bands so in numerical terms people might want to pay attention to those US bands, and that's fine for me. No offence intended.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thandrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 12:02
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Hungary has few bands and all of them almost symphonic...

Hungary's great when it comes to symphonic prog!

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

which is not a valid inference from that fact.
I sense that you now understand that you just revealed that there are more US bands in PA than UK bands so in numerical terms people might want to pay attention to those US bands, and that's fine for me. No offence intended.

Well yeah, I might have been a bit radical / hasty with my conclusions - but anyways, you could tell that amount of ideas generated there was no less. Concerning quality, I think most of prog fans don't know it enough (myself included) to judge it. So it's likely that from this big amount of material reasonable percentage would be gems (just like everywhere, even England). So, attention is warranted Smile

BTW, does the forum policy allow to post YouTube links for full albums? So we could share some of US gems available there. I've seen songs shared, but not albums, that's why I'm asking. Smile


Edited by Thandrus - December 03 2012 at 12:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 12:06
Think this just comes down to simple demographics like land mass, population density, average age etc.
These all can relate to a stronger likely hood that a country will have more than the other.

I bet the US has the most, But their exposure is not as well known as the UK.
Germany. I'm not surprised. Just not enough exposure. I think I only listen to A Poverty's no crime and Vaden Plas. Can't name too many.

Anyway. My feeling is that the U.S has the most, but the UK produce the best. Just my opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 12:26
Originally posted by Thandrus Thandrus wrote:


BTW, does the forum policy allow to post YouTube links for full albums? So we could share some of US gems available there. I've seen songs shared, but not albums, that's why I'm asking. Smile
Nothing against the policy as far as I know, the site hosting the material is You Tube not PA.
There was a thread not long ago posting links to full prog-related documentaries in You Tube.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote presdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 17:02
German Symphonic Prog band Triumvirat hit the Top 40 in the USA with Spartacus in '75. At the time, more an exception to the rule, as far as German Sym. Prog making a dent in North America. Triumvirat also hit Number 1 in Portugal and in the top 4 in Brazil only a year later in terms of album sales. (they were not a singles oriented band)
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