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Simple statistics, misconceptions disproved.

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The Dark Elf View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Simple statistics, misconceptions disproved.
    Posted: December 03 2012 at 08:52
This just goes to show you the truth in the saying Mark Twain popularized:

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
Please pay a visit to my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music reviews, literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Thandrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 08:23
Originally posted by Blacksword

Who is the US or European Genesis, Yes, ELP etc..??

Starcastle? Glass Hammer? Spocks Beard? PFM?    

Love those bands, but I think the point to be made is that England IS the home of symphonic prog rock in terms of what that particular subgenre spawned and influenced globally.

Well, no need of specific analogs - ... but when US has a wonderband (IMO, of course) like Maelstrom almost unknown, this points to some kind of prejudice born out of popular misconception against US symph. And who knows
how many more bands we have to hear and fully appreciate!

PFM example is a bit irrelevant IMO, because if we touch Italy, we have to stand against  the most massive symphonic avalanche there has ever been LOL

Yes, nobody argues that UK is a home for symphonic prog - that's what indeed it is; but there could be just as many symphonic ideas over the Atlantic - at least so many just not to deem American symphonic prog a priori second-rate 
Smile

Originally posted by Snow Dog

It makes sense that The US have more. Much huger population equals more varieties of everything under the sun.

Well yes, population size matters - but when we talk about country's prog input we usually mean it in absolute terms, not relative to country's size; With former approach Belgium could be viewed as one of the European prog leaders, relative to their area / population - which is absolutely not the case.

Originally posted by moshkito

If you have 150 out of 200 million people instead of 150 out of 40 million (whatevuuuuhhh!!!) ... the number becomes almost trivial and in America, and massive in Germany or England!

Yes but again, we measure input as an absolute term, not per capita Wink

Originally posted by moshkito

It's almost like saying that Swedish women are ugly, or Russian women, or Thai women, or Australian women ... and you know that is really full of it!

Sadly that's a kind of approach I've often encountered towards American symphonic prog Confused

Originally posted by moshkito

Some statistics are worth their salt ... but they need to have PERSPECTIVE. In a relational sense, your statistic would not go very far in college, btw! A professor at UCSB in Sociology 101 used to get everyone to create these statistical everythings on the first week, and then proceed to shoot them all down ... out loud in front of the whole class ... so you got the idea ... that numbers are an ADVERTISING TOOL ... not necessarily a scientific tool!

Sure, it was a simple search that quite amazed and a bit confused me. The PERSPECTIVE and moral of it (for me, at least) is that much of US symph is thrown into the wastebin and regarded as a second-tier. And yeah, most of it is very unpopular too, judging by review numbers - so, saying again, it points to some popular misconception angainst it, not the opinion formed by thorough investigation Wink


Edited by Thandrus - December 03 2012 at 08:49
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Post Options Post Options   Quote omphaloskepsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 08:21
How does Sweden fare when it comes down to prog bands  per capita?   I know of towns in Finland and Sweden with less than 20,000 people,  with five or more prog bands mentioned on prog archives.   Wikipedia says:

Sweden also has a prominent choral music tradition, deriving in part from the cultural importance of Swedish folk songs. In fact, out of a population of 9.5 million, it is estimated that five to six hundred thousand people sing in choirs.[171]

In 2007, with over 800 million dollars in revenue, Sweden was the third largest music exporter in the world and surpassed only by the US and the UK.[172

 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote thellama73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 08:06
Originally posted by Snow Dog

It makes sense that The US have more. Much huger population equals more varieties of everything under the sun.


This is what I was going to say. If you weight by population, the U.K. would come out far ahead of the U.S. and Germany. Per capita, the U.K. has the most Symphonic Prog bands.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 07:25
Originally posted by Thandrus

Did a simple search in ProgArchives symphonic prog section to see which country had the most symphonic prog bands. See results below in the photo attached.

...
 
Considering the size of each country and the number of its population, those numbers are way off and simply a top ten number that is not indicative of a whole lot of much ... except bad statistics to feed the sadistic mind of the populist ideals!  Embarrassed   
 
Wink
 
If you have 150 out of 200 million people instead of 150 out of 40 million (whatevuuuuhhh!!!) ... the number becomes almost trivial and in America, and massive in Germany or England!
 
To me, this is the hard part of the "top ten" mentality ... you see the numbers without a perspective of what they mean ... and this is exactly what I mean that when London sells 100k copies of something it becomes a hit that we are supposed to hear and buy, and the same in NY, or Tokyo ... but the rest of the world has not heard it, or cares about it ... and it "forces you" to listen and "appreciate" the new Number One ... which, of course, is only happening in one place, not others! Nashville rarely cares, for example!
 
Without trying to sound smug, or bad, this is exactly why we need to get rid of the top ten mentality in progressive music ... it teaches you to look at the wrong thing ... popularity ... instead of the value of the music itself. That, in no way, is to state that the public does not have good taste ... if that were the case, Janis, Jimi, Jim and many others would never have been heard ... but it spoke a lot for the abilities and their music ... and you have to see that scale and how it balances out.
 
You can see how we can get tired of the NY media, or London media, or Tokyo media (we ignore that one really good!), telling us what is best and what is superior! Specially when there is so much more music everywhere in the world that those folks, and you and I, have never heard ... or eever will bother to hear!
 
If I may suggest, also be a "progressive" listener and "progressive" thinker ... a lot of the music and its variety and other work in other countries, will make a lot more sense to your palate! The beauty is endless. It's almost like saying that Swedish women are ugly, or Russian women, or Thai women, or Australian women ... and you know that is really full of it!
 
Some statistics are worth their salt ... but they need to have PERSPECTIVE. In a relational sense, your statistic would not go very far in college, btw! A professor at UCSB in Sociology 101 used to get everyone to create these statistical everythings on the first week, and then proceed to shoot them all down ... out loud in front of the whole class ... so you got the idea ... that numbers are an ADVERTISING TOOL ... not necessarily a scientific tool!
 
Remember that next time you go see the latest greatest movie that made 100 Million!


Edited by moshkito - December 03 2012 at 07:47
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 06:49
It makes sense that The US have more. Much huger population equals more varieties of everything under the sun.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 06:47
Who is the US or European Genesis, Yes, ELP etc..??

Starcastle? Glass Hammer? Spocks Beard? PFM?    

Love those bands, but I think the point to be made is that England IS the home of symphonic prog rock in terms of what that particular subgenre spawned and influenced globally.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 06:32
Or,  never mind the quality feel the width.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Thandrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 05:52
Sleeper, let's say I can name quite a few :) I agree about influence, but could / couldn't this be more a matter of exposure than of quality difference?

Yeah, Neo Prog "steal" does have a role, but still, even considering this the result is:

UK: 40 + 96 = 136
US: 76 + 67 = 143
Germany: 40 + 38 = 78

Germany's out, but US still leading.


Edited by Thandrus - December 03 2012 at 05:53
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sleeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 05:29
Beyond Kansas, can you name me any US, or for that matter German, Symph Prog bands that have remotely had the level of influence that Genesis, ELP, Yes, Renaissance, et all have had?

Didn't think so.

Besides, since the 80's most British prog bands have ended up being classed as Neo-Prog, where as the Americans have definitely concentrated more on Symph. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Thandrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2012 at 05:02
Did a simple search in ProgArchives symphonic prog section to see which country had the most symphonic prog bands. See results below in the photo attached.

I was as amazed as some of you might get. The results proved wrong the most rooted prog misconception according to which UK was the center of symphonic prog. As you can see here, there are almost two times more symphonic prog bands in US than in UK. Germany has just as many symphonic prog bands as UK. Could what we've thought all this time be just a matter of exposure? Share your thoughts, please!

P.S. This doesn't even take into the account all the Italian prog bands, who were mostly of symphonic variety.
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