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Topic ClosedWhat kind of music do you improvise to and how?

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Dayvenkirq View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2015 at 23:46
Dear diary, 

Today was a good (not great, but good) day for my elgtr playing (that's an abbreviation I use for my notes when I write something or figure out a playing technique). By the way, we should probably share notes on the techniques of playing an instrument, guitar, piano, and whatnot. In fact, I think I'm going to put something up on my Soundcloud and see what you think.

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Yeah, it's really hard to improvise lead without any rhythm back-up.
I should probably take that back. Tongue ... Your head just has to really be in the game.

-----------------------------------------------

All of my elgtr notes currently (that I've written for my own style): 

Single-note improv.
Muted notes improv.
Riff improv.

Most useful tips:

 - single-note solo (focus on rhythm/accentuation, not notes)
 - "logical phrasing" (incl. call and response)
   = singing the phrases in the head (thinking something free-style, close to Coltrane)
   = "scaling" (asc. / desc.); see "La Villa Strangiato" and "Your Gold Teeth".
   = principial notes: R, 5th, 2nd, 7th
   = fast picking (of a single note/notes in a chord)
   = quick up-slides
   = octave jumps
   = (alternating) chromatic tones
   = controlled noise
   = dissonant phrases
   = include chords (dyads/double stops) as exclamation points every now then (they dictate the rhythm)
   = arps* with all notes ringing
   = anacrises
 - think about rhythm (note groups): duplets, triplets, or quadruplets
 - character: dissonance, noise, mid-tempo to fast, (riffing)
 - soloing not just with notes: dyads, etc. (Don't rely too much on the chords!)


* My shorthand for "arpeggios".




Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 22 2015 at 00:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2015 at 00:07
Question to fellow improvisers: what player/group of players would you like to sound like? And what kind of sound do you prefer (or what brand of instrument, if we are talking acoustic instruments)?

Since my interest is currently set on the electric guitar, I've been recently listening to the guys Steven Wilson, Scott Walker (the two SW's of music), and Steely Dan recruited to play lead on their tracks. I'm talking Hugh Burns, David Rhodes, Dean Parks, Larry Carlton, Mike Outram, etc. They came up with some pretty mean lines. Plus, ... Bruce Springsteen and Neil Young/Danny Whitten. In fact, I pulled the intro to Neil's "Albuquerque" very well. Easy to play, and it sounds cool. I try to visualize the important scale tones as well as chord shapes on the fretboard and make heavy use of the root, 5th (a very important one when it comes to rock music), 2nd, and 7th notes. Sometimes I lower the 5th and the 2nd, and sometimes it works. The 4th (unless it's the root of the subdominant chord) and 6th did not work out for some reason. The 3rd didn't really cut it for me; I don't particularly feel happy or sad, but I have mixed emotions.

I have to admit: I probably won't have a style unless I assimilate one. There's this group of musicians, and you don't have to play exactly like them, but at least follow their ideas. Don't get too close to the sun; just close enough.

As for the sound, think "No Twilight In The Courts Of The Sun" and Camel's "Summer Lightning". I try to get other timbres for the electric guitars, but either my choice of the guitars is wrong or the choice of the amps is wrong ... or both.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 22 2015 at 00:41
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2015 at 14:58
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Question to fellow improvisers: what player/group of players would you like to sound like? And what kind of sound do you prefer (or what brand of instrument, if we are talking acoustic instruments)?

I do a lot of my own thing, exploring scales and stuff as we already discussed. I've always had this idea of going for some sort of blend between Frank Zappa and Steve Hackett's very different guitar styles, and wondering what such a thing might sound like. Ultimately I sound like myself, probably because I don't spend a lot of time with other people's material. It normally doesn't take me long to forget the two-thirds of someone's piece that I may have taught myself on some odd occasion, remembering only some peculiar highlight in the phrasing that I try to incorporate elsewhere.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2015 at 15:01
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Question to fellow improvisers: what player/group of players would you like to sound like? And what kind of sound do you prefer (or what brand of instrument, if we are talking acoustic instruments)?

I do a lot of my own thing, exploring scales and stuff as we already discussed. I've always had this idea of going for some sort of blend between Frank Zappa and Steve Hackett's very different guitar styles, and wondering what such a thing might sound like. Ultimately I sound like myself, probably because I don't spend a lot of time with other people's material. It normally doesn't take me long to forget the two-thirds of someone's piece that I may have taught myself on some odd occasion, remembering only some peculiar highlight in the phrasing that I try to incorporate elsewhere.
On electric guitar I would like to sound like some of my favorite JRF guitarists like John Etheridge, Gary Boyle, or Allan Holdsworth. My preferred electric guitars are my Fender Strat and Gibson Les Paul Studio.
On acoustic guitar I would like to sound like Larry Coryell and Philip Catherine on Twin House which is an all acoustic album. My preferred acoustic is an Ovation Collectors model (acous/elec) that has been set up with a low action to play leads high up on the fret board.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2015 at 15:11
^ I've always wondered what "action" means (hard to find the right definition on Google).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2015 at 15:37
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ I've always wondered what "action" means (hard to find the right definition on Google).
This guitar was set up by a guitar tech in Hollywood and is very easy to play. 
When I play it through an amp my leads sound like they're being played on one of my electrics.
The only drawback is the typical Ovation round back that is awkward (to me) to play while standing up.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2015 at 18:27
^ Interesting. Didn't know you could do that.

Anyway, nice setup you got there. Thumbs Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2015 at 20:32
Anything musically, arpeggios.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2015 at 20:34
^ What about passing tones?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2015 at 11:30
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ I've always wondered what "action" means (hard to find the right definition on Google).

Action refers to the distance between the strings and the fretboard. The advantage of having low action is that you don't have to raise your fret hand fingers as high when moving from string to string. I used to like low action. My older guitar, an Aria Pro II RS Ina Zuma V (silly name), still has the action set really really low, but it bothers me now when I was playing on it extensively a month or so ago. I'm more comfortable with a somewhat higher action now that I have on my Les Paul. I'm not sure why except that it's just what I've gotten used to in the last few years.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2015 at 12:33
^ Ah, gracias. Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2015 at 13:08
I now feel comfortable playing in different keys on the piano, and I like unpredictable chord progressions, so that makes for a fun improvisation free of over-thinking: http://soundcloud.com/andrey-gaganov/edited-improvisation-1

Too bad I can't identify the styles I was incorporating. There is some classical, and I don't know about jazz, but I'd like to know those specific sub-genre names.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2015 at 14:34
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

I'm going to say something that might be a lot of help to my fellow improvisers around here:
...
 
The point of ANY improvisation is to find something ... unknown!
 
Granted the starting point is always something "known", but the point is to break away as soon as possible to give your self a chance to learn something else about the exercise.
 
IF, all it is, is about "notes and chords", you will not learn about yourself through them ... you will be a nice and fast machine ... with no soul behind it! As an example, think of Jon Mclaughlin, and how fast he is and is not a machine.
 
Acting exercises (advanced classes only), give you an example of this ... on a lab, you are a child and you are inside this room for 3 hours with the other actors ... it will be about 15 minutes and your "character is already falling apart! Your "imaginary" idea starts to break down ... and you really want to do the same thing in your improvisation exercise, or it will nto last, and you will nto find anything.
 
One last note ... it's not about finding a note or a riff, and if that is all you are chasing, these exercises are not for you! PERIOD. It is, for the most part about your own inner side and how you relate to the notes and chords, and when you find that moment, music will never again stump you, and you will be better appreciated than most folks out there ... c'mon, wake up ... there are a thousand pickers out there that can do this better than you ... what's left? ... only one thing! Your connection to the inside ... and after that, say hello to me, though I will probably be long gone from this earth!
 
This is not an illusion ... but you are doing things the "academic" way ... which is the same thing as just scrambling the notes on any DAW! You can do that without an instrument in your hand!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2015 at 15:20
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

I'm going to say something that might be a lot of help to my fellow improvisers around here:
...
 
The point of ANY improvisation is to find something ... unknown!

...

This is not an illusion ... but you are doing things the "academic" way ... which is the same thing as just scrambling the notes on any DAW! You can do that without an instrument in your hand!
I thought the point was communication, being able to connect with somebody, to relate to somebody, as academic as the idea of "common language" may seem to you. But maybe you are right: communicating in a "common language" is kind of like using DAW, a practice far too specific for a concept so vague.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - February 06 2015 at 15:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2015 at 13:00
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

I'm going to say something that might be a lot of help to my fellow improvisers around here:
...
 
The point of ANY improvisation is to find something ... unknown!

...

This is not an illusion ... but you are doing things the "academic" way ... which is the same thing as just scrambling the notes on any DAW! You can do that without an instrument in your hand!
I thought the point was communication, being able to connect with somebody, to relate to somebody, as academic as the idea of "common language" may seem to you. But maybe you are right: communicating in a "common language" is kind of like using DAW, a practice far too specific for a concept so vague.


Moshkito's way of thinking (and feeling) about it is mine.  I make music for me.  If it connects with others too, that's fantastic, but that's not the purpose of making it.  But I can see how, for some people, it would be.  I wonder, though, if it is distracting to constantly be thinking about how others would perceive the music.  I don't think that would be productive for me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2015 at 13:18
1) Of course, the purpose of making music is whatever you want that purpose to be. To me it's about finding the communicative channel, reaching out, finding somebody to relate to, not pandering to somebody or making somebody's ears bleed, or make someone fall asleep. I don't even think indulging myself is the point either; for other people that defeats the purpose of listening to your stuff. (However, this discussion is in the wrong thread.)
2) I don't believe productivity in itself is the point either, an end that all musicians should aspire to. (This is also in the wrong thread.)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2015 at 13:27
^Agreed on both points.  When I said productive, though, I didn't mean in producing songs - I meant emotionally productive for me. Smile  That's why I do it, after all.  Yeah, it's a little off-topic but certainly related to improvisation.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2015 at 20:30
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:


I'm going to say something that might be a lot of help to my fellow improvisers around here:

...


 

The point of ANY improvisation is to find something ... unknown!

...

<span style="line-height: 18.2000007629395px;">This is not an illusion ... but you are doing things the "academic" way ... which is the same thing as just scrambling the notes on any DAW! You can do that without an instrument in your hand!</span>
I thought the point was communication, being able to connect with somebody, to relate to somebody, as academic as the idea of "common language" may seem to you. But maybe you are right: communicating in a "common language" is kind of like using DAW, a practice far too specific for a concept so vague.

I went back and forth with Moshkito on this in another thread concerning improvisation. He rejects the use of any structured conceptualization, which he often labels as "academic", in improvisation. We all agree that it should come from deep inside and that it should be genuinely creative. But I don't see any opposition between structure and improvisation. Artists control structure. Structure does not control them. A case in point was, again, your emphasis on chords (using cadential harmonies) versus my emphasis on scales. I still find it hard to imagine going about things your way, but that doesn't mean I don't find it intriguing. Even with things structured, there are many directions to head in. Nothing's pre-determined by structure, and it's the artists who mold everything with their own mindset. If that mindset is like Mosh's, in which an artist just wants to do his thing without being bothered by questions about his method, that's fine. But if the mindset is like yours in which self-reflection concerning your methods has its own inherent value, then that should be fine too.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2015 at 03:27

1) In that case Pedro and I could have a long chat about whether or not a musician can be happy without any structure at all. Can't be very expressive without being very concise. That's why we have music theory.

2) "A case in point was, again, your emphasis on chords (using cadential harmonies) versus my emphasis on scales. I still find it hard to imagine going about things your way, but that doesn't mean I don't find it intriguing.

Sounds like you are having trouble moving between different scales on your guitar. If you challenge yourself this way (yes, it takes some practice), you will find it very rewarding. Come up with a chord progression and assign every chord a scale that suits it well given the context of the progression.

Also, I don't know why we'd have to focus specifically on cadential harmonies, as I'm more interested in lead phrasing for every chord in a progression.

3) "Nothing's pre-determined by structure". True. As you said, "Artists control structure. Structure does not control them." Though I like the idea of having a musical home. I can't enjoy an improvisation that is not based on a chord progression.

Originally posted by Star_Song_Age_Less Star_Song_Age_Less wrote:

^Agreed on both points.  When I said productive, though, I didn't mean in producing songs - I meant emotionally productive for me. Smile  That's why I do it, after all.  Yeah, it's a little off-topic but certainly related to improvisation.
If thinking about others while creating music can be "emotionally counter-productive", ... then yeah, I can see that. "Can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself." Man, this process can be a b$%ch.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - February 08 2015 at 03:50
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2015 at 08:55
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

1) In that case Pedro and I could have a long chat about whether or not a musician can be happy without any structure at all. Can't be very expressive without being very concise. That's why we have music theory.
Pedro has indeed been anti-music theory in a couple threads.
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Sounds like you are having trouble moving between different scales on your guitar. If you challenge yourself this way (yes, it takes some practice), you will find it very rewarding. Come up with a chord progression and assign every chord a scale that suits it well given the context of the progression.
So, the scale, or I presume the key as well, drifts with each chord. That is intriguing to me. I've done shifts between scales where I dwell for a period a set of notes or chords that are ambiguous between two scales and then make a shift. I haven't worked on frequent shifts like you're talking about. I presume the best progressions for this don't move from chord to chord to rapidly, or it seems it would be difficult to keep up, at least in the context of improvisation.



Edited by HackettFan - February 08 2015 at 08:58
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