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Comparing prog from different countries

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lazland View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Comparing prog from different countries
    Posted: February 23 2013 at 13:23
Originally posted by cstack3

Great thread!!  

In the USA, I've noticed that many of our prog bands seem to "ape" Yes overall....including Starcastle (who were friends of mine), Glass Hammer and numerous others.  Very irritating, although sometimes they pull off something that is genuinely innovative.  GH's newest is quite good and not as derivative.  

However, we Yanks do have many very good jazz-rock fusion outfits, and seem to make very good contributions to this genre. Chick Corea and his band's many offshoots (Stanley Clarke, Al Dimeola etc.) comes to mind.  

It's not that we lack the talent, but we don't have good English sensibilities!  Right, Laz?  



Only just seen thisLOL

Now, if only we could all share some of those sensibilities!


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Post Options Post Options   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2013 at 14:41
Originally posted by aldri7

Originally posted by brainstormer

I think, for me, this is one of the best topics to ever come up on Prog Archives.  It brings
prog out of the "high schooler" mentality that is frequently found when it's discussed online,
and into something a little bit more like academic musicology. 

thank you..

Since I started this thread, I've found some French prog that I like. I think there were two bands, but I can't remember the name of one now. The other is "Lord of Mushrooms" which is a pretty interesting band to me. Its prog metal but with more adventurous harmonies and some neo prog influences (or was it porcupine tree?).

I would really like prog metal better if they explored darker harmonies more. "The missing Link" and "Circles on the Water" by Lord of Mushrooms get into that realm a little. Prog metal should be fertile ground for diminished scale harmonies or shifting minors etc. It would suit the subject matter if its more gothic anyway. So, hats off to Lord of Mushrooms for not only elevating my attitude towards prog metal but also French prog in general.

aldri7



NebelNest from France are outstanding, look into them!  http://nebelnest.com/

I saw them in Chicago, they were excellent!  Not sure if they are still active, this website is pretty dated.   They seemed to channel the English prog spirit a bit, reminding me more than a little of LTIA era King Crimson.  It was a fantastic show, and I was very happy to meet them (this was about September 1999).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote aldri7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2013 at 09:30
Originally posted by lucas



Regarding France :
Besides Zeuhl (which has very few bands under its umbrella), France has a long history with celtic folk and traditional music (Dan Ar Braz, Malicorne, Alan Stivell, Pierre Bensusan and more recently Seven Reizh).


I took a instant liking to Dan Ar Braz so thank for the recommendation. There is this mix of fusion almost or smooth jazz (acoustic alchemy) with celtic music which I liked a lot. More listening needed here :) They are not listed here, but its not really prog. THis is the type of band I NEVER would have found on my own :) So thanks to the forums....

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2013 at 08:50
I am going to go off on my own tangent here, as it seems I probably should've been here for the start....

Anyway, I find some of the South American/Portuguese prog bands to have a similar quality to them as found in the RPI scene from around the same time, which translates into the start 70s or something to that effect.

Here's Quarteto 1111, which I absolutely adore. It wasn't until I looked the album up on PA I found out about it not being an RPI release:


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Post Options Post Options   Quote aldri7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2013 at 08:41
Originally posted by Metalmarsh89

 

You could make a similar argument from the other side of the spectrum as well. For me, my liking of prog music came from a disinterest in popular music. I know absolutely nothing about classical music, not because I have no interest, but because I haven't been exposed to it or raised around it.

Back in 1970 or so, I think there were a lot of people, myself included, who were disinterested in the popular music that was coming out at the time. I really was looking for an alternative to bluesy rock which was all the rage then. And so along comes "Yes" and it was like the perfect answer to all my prayers. 

Yes and Genesis, etc at the time tapped into something,  a desperate need I think - I mean there must have been lots of people like me who were dissatisfied and not buying Jimi Hendrix albums. 

I'm listening to "Lord of Mushrooms" as I write this (getting back to my earlier post). Man, these guys go way beyond prog metal where they are listed here. I'd suggest a different category for them, maybe eclectic prog or heavy prog. I don't know, but its just that guys are going to miss some great music if they pass over prog metal on their way to other categories!

And now,  I am going to make what is probably a pretty ridiculous assertion. I hope you will pardon me anyway but I have this strange need  to be able to find some French prog that pays homage to French classical music. I guess its because I like French classical music so much (it was played in my house a lot when I was a kid growing up)...

And so, at about the 2:00 minute mark in Lord of the Mushroom's "Warmth in the Wilderness", the melody ascends and goes through several unexpected chord changes as it climbs to a "B". And when I first heard it, I immediately flashed back to Ravel's "Daphnis et Chloe" which doesn't sound anything like this really, but at the same time  - there is this ascending passage there also right before the return to the main theme which also twists through a series of unexpected chord changes and.........could it be......?  Why would I have flashed back to Ravel? But that I did that really gets me admiring this band, whether or not they were consciously thinking of Ravel or maybe they don't know squat about Ravel. :)  I haven't a clue, but its fun doing this kind of detective work anyway..

And I love having Spotify now on my computer. :) I can call up Daphnis et Chloe and play it alongside Lord of Mushrooms at the click of a mouse......bliss....and the passage I referred to in Ravel comes at about the 2:45 mark compared to the 2:00 mark for "Warmth in the Wilderness". Given this version of Daphnis et Chloe is played on the slow side, then the two passages occur at about the same point in the music. And to put the icing on the cake, Ravel's passage also ascends to a "B" !!

aldri7


Edited by aldri7 - February 22 2013 at 09:11
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Post Options Post Options   Quote aldri7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2013 at 08:26
Originally posted by brainstormer

I think, for me, this is one of the best topics to ever come up on Prog Archives.  It brings
prog out of the "high schooler" mentality that is frequently found when it's discussed online,
and into something a little bit more like academic musicology. 

thank you..

Since I started this thread, I've found some French prog that I like. I think there were two bands, but I can't remember the name of one now. The other is "Lord of Mushrooms" which is a pretty interesting band to me. Its prog metal but with more adventurous harmonies and some neo prog influences (or was it porcupine tree?).

I would really like prog metal better if they explored darker harmonies more. "The missing Link" and "Circles on the Water" by Lord of Mushrooms get into that realm a little. Prog metal should be fertile ground for diminished scale harmonies or shifting minors etc. It would suit the subject matter if its more gothic anyway. So, hats off to Lord of Mushrooms for not only elevating my attitude towards prog metal but also French prog in general.

aldri7




Edited by aldri7 - February 22 2013 at 08:30
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Post Options Post Options   Quote brainstormer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2013 at 11:24
I think, for me, this is one of the best topics to ever come up on Prog Archives.  It brings
prog out of the "high schooler" mentality that is frequently found when it's discussed online,
and into something a little bit more like academic musicology. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Metalmarsh89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2013 at 10:52
Originally posted by aldri7

Originally posted by aldri7

 That means that if its Russian, its Shostakovich or Prokofiev that does it for me, not a prog band from there

I'm going to quote myself here - because I think I may have answered my own question.

That country's with strong classical music traditions don't have better prog is maybe because they simply don't need it. Why would you need a substitute when you can have the real thing? Prog to many is really a rejection of standard classical music - I mean, it honors it  compared to rock'n roll, but is also says "I want to substitute a music that speaks to me more directly, uses more contemporary instruments, etc" i.e "I like classical music but its not my primary language and culture so I want to remake it in my own image". But the traditionalists would have no interest in that. They would say "if you want to make sophisticated music, why not just score it for an orchestra? So I would think in those countries that maybe too many would see prog as, at best, a cheap substitute, or, at worst, a clumsy attempt from a different part of society to challenge the status quo, to say "we can do it too, and sell even more albums than you".  And would the most musically gifted in those countries feel that writing for a prog band instead of an orchestra or other ensemble would be a waste of their precious talent? Maybe. This would tend to syphon off talent and water down the prog. So I'm glad then that there is great prog out there and countries where it has broad support from all levels of society.

aldri7







You could make a similar argument from the other side of the spectrum as well. For me, my liking of prog music came from a disinterest in popular music. I know absolutely nothing about classical music, not because I have no interest, but because I haven't been exposed to it or raised around it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Metalmarsh89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2013 at 10:42
Originally posted by aldri7

And then throw in the fact that drums and drumming has a long history of practice in less developed countries - Africa, Asia, South America. So to the upper class, drumming probably at some point (19th century maybe during the global expansion) came to be associated with tribal cultures, uneducated masses to be controlled etc. And the first use of drums in western culture for dancing - (Strauss wrote waltzes but didn't score them for base drum..:)) - I don't know. Anyone? Was that a black influence in America or were they doing it before then? I kind of wish I had a time machine and I could go back to about 1910 or so, when Professer Hill in the Music Man was railing against ragtime..


Drums have played a major role in Native American music and dance for centuries, but Government views and relations with Native Americans lead me to believe that is not where they get the inspiration for these steady beats you speak of. I don't know much about Native American culture, but because drums and vocals are often the primary instruments used, I would believe they do all sorts of interesting, fun things with it as opposed to a steady tapping.

I would be more inclined to believe that while drumming could have been primarily adapted from these other lesser developed countries you speak of, I think that modern western culture merely adopted such habits from the eastern cultures who expanded west hundreds of years ago (Spain, France, England, etc.).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Icarium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2013 at 02:47
I have to be honest abou this, and that is that i also think there is also a influence from bard traditions in prog as well,in both English prog and also Scandinavian, the bards ballad style, as ballads is a different style as folk and classical is different, styles, and ballad style is very popular amon the early prog, the telling of a story, of romantic and epic realations,

to me Ian Anderson ans Peter Gabriel, were to me modern bards (court bards). with their flutes, or lutes, or acoustic guitar.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2013 at 22:54
Great thread!!  

In the USA, I've noticed that many of our prog bands seem to "ape" Yes overall....including Starcastle (who were friends of mine), Glass Hammer and numerous others.  Very irritating, although sometimes they pull off something that is genuinely innovative.  GH's newest is quite good and not as derivative.  

However, we Yanks do have many very good jazz-rock fusion outfits, and seem to make very good contributions to this genre. Chick Corea and his band's many offshoots (Stanley Clarke, Al Dimeola etc.) comes to mind.  

It's not that we lack the talent, but we don't have good English sensibilities!  Right, Laz?  




Edited by cstack3 - February 20 2013 at 22:55
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Post Options Post Options   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2013 at 06:11
Gong, who originated in France, definitely have some relationship to Krautrock

as to the name "Krautrock": it is actually being used in Germany too, like a trademark


Edited by BaldJean - February 20 2013 at 06:12

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Post Options Post Options   Quote twosteves Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2013 at 23:07
when Jon ANderson was asked years ago why so much good music came out of England back in the 60's and 70's he said that in England back in those days there was not too many options--after high school you went to university or a factory---so lot's of guys got guitars, drums or any insturment and looked for a third option---rock band.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Quote presdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 20:39
^hey, right on! Papillon is their best, and is woefully overlooked. On side two, they quote Vivaldi, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky in a really cool, ELPish kind of way-love it!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote aldri7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 20:32
Originally posted by aldri7

Originally posted by presdoug

My life passion is classical music, from Bach to Shostakovitch, with the Late Romantic period my main focus, and the monumental symphonies of Anton Bruckner the summit of that for me.
        I grew up on rock music, especially heavy rock, and was a bit of a late comer to prog. I developed an interest in classical music around the same time as prog, so when a band like ELP or Triumvirat or Latte e Miele quote classical music directly, i've always really related to that, and found it really cool!
        But because i was raised on rock, i could never divorce myself from it or misunderstand it the way a classical snob would. I guess i get the best of both worlds in embracing classical music and rock. I couldn't live my life without both of them.

Kudo's.....

If I had to give up one, classical, jazz or rock (prog, folk, etc) it would break my heart. Each kind of represents a different aspect of my life, and parting with any one of them would be like slicing a part of me off. No classical music aficionado could relate as I'm sure you would agree...

But I actually sort of found my way to rock through prog, not the other way around. Its kind of weird, but prog is what made other rock more acceptable to me. I really was more pop and classical oriented when I was a teenager. At times i felt pretty isolated from my peers...:)

EDIT: I'm listening to Latte e Miele as I write this, and WOW, is there some ELP influences in there or what!??(papillon overture). So thanks for the tip..!

aldri7













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Post Options Post Options   Quote aldri7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 20:29
Originally posted by presdoug

My life passion is classical music, from Bach to Shostakovitch, with the Late Romantic period my main focus, and the monumental symphonies of Anton Bruckner the summit of that for me.
        I grew up on rock music, especially heavy rock, and was a bit of a late comer to prog. I developed an interest in classical music around the same time as prog, so when a band like ELP or Triumvirat or Latte e Miele quote classical music directly, i've always really related to that, and found it really cool!
        But because i was raised on rock, i could never divorce myself from it or misunderstand it the way a classical snob would. I guess i get the best of both worlds in embracing classical music and rock. I couldn't live my life without both of them.

Kudo's.....

If I had to give up one, classical, jazz or rock (prog, folk, etc) it would break my heart. Each kind of represents a different aspect of my life, and parting with any one of them would be like slicing a part of me off. No classical music aficionado could relate as I'm sure you would agree...

But I actually sort of found my way to rock through prog, not the other way around. Its kind of weird, but prog is what made other rock more acceptable to me. I really was more pop and classical oriented when I was a teenager. At times i felt pretty isolated from my peers...:)

aldri7













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Post Options Post Options   Quote presdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 19:54
My life passion is classical music, from Bach to Shostakovitch, with the Late Romantic period my main focus, and the monumental symphonies of Anton Bruckner the summit of that for me.
        I grew up on rock music, especially heavy rock, and was a bit of a late comer to prog. I developed an interest in classical music around the same time as prog, so when a band like ELP or Triumvirat or Latte e Miele quote classical music directly, i've always really related to that, and found it really cool!
        But because i was raised on rock, i could never divorce myself from it or misunderstand it the way a classical snob would. I guess i get the best of both worlds in embracing classical music and rock. I couldn't live my life without both of them.


Edited by presdoug - January 22 2013 at 19:57
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Post Options Post Options   Quote aldri7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 19:30
Originally posted by aldri7

 That means that if its Russian, its Shostakovich or Prokofiev that does it for me, not a prog band from there

I'm going to quote myself here - because I think I may have answered my own question.

That country's with strong classical music traditions don't have better prog is maybe because they simply don't need it. Why would you need a substitute when you can have the real thing? Prog to many is really a rejection of standard classical music - I mean, it honors it  compared to rock'n roll, but is also says "I want to substitute a music that speaks to me more directly, uses more contemporary instruments, etc" i.e "I like classical music but its not my primary language and culture so I want to remake it in my own image". But the traditionalists would have no interest in that. They would say "if you want to make sophisticated music, why not just score it for an orchestra? So I would think in those countries that maybe too many would see prog as, at best, a cheap substitute, or, at worst, a clumsy attempt from a different part of society to challenge the status quo, to say "we can do it too, and sell even more albums than you".  And would the most musically gifted in those countries feel that writing for a prog band instead of an orchestra or other ensemble would be a waste of their precious talent? Maybe. This would tend to syphon off talent and water down the prog. So I'm glad then that there is great prog out there and countries where it has broad support from all levels of society.

aldri7







Edited by aldri7 - January 22 2013 at 19:34
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Post Options Post Options   Quote aldri7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 14:07
Originally posted by moshkito

 
Unffortunately, ALL music is so tied and related to its culture and the differences are what music history has been about for over 500 years. I have always thought that the stick, and the time keeping (fabulously shown to us with Salieri in a movie!) ... is a perfect example of how the upper class, does not want music to be brought down to the "public", and that "discipline" (or "timing") is important to ... keep control of the masses ... and remember that this was 350 years ago!
 
I know it's a subliminal type message, but maybe that is the reason I hate to see a drummer wasted to satisfy a time-keeping requirement, that is a part of "popular music" that has ALWAYS been thought of as "uneducated" music!
 
TO ME ... a lot of this "progressive music" ... is just about this ... showing that even other folks that are not necessarily a part of the "establishment" are also great musicians that can create outstanding work, thus my reasons for always making fun of the upper crust and the lower crust as well ... because sometimes the idea of just fighting for figthing's sakes and someone else collects the money ... is my idea of ripping off, and manipulating folks!  Which religion is next?

As I read this, I thought about the military and pictured soldiers marching to a strict beat. I never really thought about that before with respects to music and the upper and lower class. Uniforms helped too..:) You know, I suppose there was a time in our not too distant past when the only music with drums and a strict beat was marching music (fife and drums, etc)   And from there, we evolved and drums became standard in dance music as well. 

And so I googled this up. From the 16th to 19th century, military units usually had a drum corp which were used to aid troop movements in the field. it was also called "field music". And from there, marching bands, marching music etc evolved. And so to the aristocratic class, you can easily see how drums came to have an important role in their scheme of things - it was used to keep others in line.

And then throw in the fact that drums and drumming has a long history of practice in less developed countries - Africa, Asia, South America. So to the upper class, drumming probably at some point (19th century maybe during the global expansion) came to be associated with tribal cultures, uneducated masses to be controlled etc. And the first use of drums in western culture for dancing - (Strauss wrote waltzes but didn't score them for base drum..:)) - I don't know. Anyone? Was that a black influence in America or were they doing it before then? I kind of wish I had a time machine and I could go back to about 1910 or so, when Professer Hill in the Music Man was railing against ragtime..
Also, consider the evolution of the drug culture in western society which probably sort of paralleled the rise of dancing to the beat, jazz, etc. and then rock.

OK, well, I guess I'm going to relate this to what I feel about Zeuhl music in France where I mentioned that it seemed sort of subversive and jazzy - something that might not to be too popular with the more conservative upper class French. But now do you think that a lot of prog is essentially poorer folks wanting to impress the upper crust with their musical abilities? Them wanting to show that they are more than just slaves to a drum beat? I see proggers as genuinely having a preference for more complex, more "classical" or traditional sounding contemporary music. In my case, I grew up classically trained in piano. We didn't listen to jazz or blues in my house. I listened to a mix of classical music and broadway music as a kid. I liked Faure, Debussy, Romanian composers. The first "popular" song I ever heard that I really liked was ironically called "Classical Gas" which came out in 1968. Remember that one? :)The very name "Classical Gas" suggested a melding of contemporary and traditional values right there, very proggy in spirit, no? :) But its interesting because I also recall strains in the sixties with my parents, specifically over music, and how I wanted my folks to like "Yes" - I thought that it was "classical" enough that they might like it. In other words, prog was a way for me to bridge a gap, to compromise I guess, and I didn't want the old folks to lump me with those "disrespectful punks" who listened to rock music. I did genuinely like Yes and not the Stones, and so it wasn't faking it on my part. But they were wondering if they had brought me up right, while I was saying - "but I like Yes, Mom!" Doesn't that show you I'm OK?

Ah "yes", the memories........the electric piano I bought one year that I almost had to hide from my Dad......

Well, I didn't mean to take this off topic, but getting back to prog by country - the countries in Europe with particularly strong classical music traditions like Austria and France - now I can see these going one of two routes in the 70's. Back then, everything (musically speaking) was eroding in the eyes of the establishment. But there were still lots of kids growing up in both those countries that were classically trained, but just not very inclined to continue in that tradition. Perfect for prog then, you say? Jan Hammer and Jean luc Ponty are two musicians that come to mind. And they weren't going to just sit back and join a typical rock band either - their ears wanted more. But they could have just stayed in their respective countries and lead an effort to forge a prog style steeped in their own country's traditions. They didn't, though - they gravitated west and into jazz, not into "austrian" symphonic prog or "French" symphonic prog. If I had been in their shoes, I might have been tempted to do it differently, but it was maybe a case of if you can't beat them, join them. Probably they did not see any future in an indigenous prog (with non english lyrics), and saw much bigger bucks and more receptive audiences elsewhere. I know I was plucking my money down to hear them anyway, not some obscure prog band from an eastern european country with no label or distribution or marketing outside of their borders. But even without the infrastructure, its not entirely clear to me why eventually, a prog to rival UK prog (I'm talking symphonic prog here) never really developed in these countries. The skills are there. I know that musical genius resides in Vienna, Moscow, Budapest, Paris, etc. And the taste for classical music is there also. So one might have thought that prog would had been the perfect compromise for a country with a strong classical tradition. From what has been written previousy in this thread, I know that UK prog was popular on the continent. Was that enough to satisfy those kids there? Did few feel a need then to take on the challenge of writing an equally exciting prog based on the culture and traditions of their respective countries? Or are my ears biased and they DID try, but I just didn't like it as much (I do tend to favor dissonance, modes, 11th and 13th chords, etc vs simple major/minor. Thats whats "exciting" to me, plus good compositional skills)? Just to give you an example of what I mean from my limited time here - I really like After Crying's "Welcome on Board". Thats what I'm talking about - its to me an exciting, non UK, perhaps uniquely Hungarian version of prog. But to sort of sum this up (man, I've written a book here..), classical music evolved and reached its highest development on the continent, not the UK. But for prog, the reverse is true. And so I guess it was never really intuitively obvious to me that it should have happened that way. That means that if its Russian, its Shostakovich or Prokofiev that does it for me, not a prog band from there,  but if on the other hand its from the UK, I'll take Genesis or Yes, not something classical written earlier (Vaughn-Williams is a good one though)..

It is true though, music knows no borders, and radio penetrates hearts and minds in a way that no human can. I try to imagine what it might have been like growing up in Eastern Europe 50 years ago. The media is from where you get all of your information about the outside world, and it can cause young minds to dream.  And In the 60's  and 70's rock music was a new media - it used cutting edge technologies, recording techniques, and required companies willing to invest in those technologies and techniques. That technology and infrastructure was best developed in the west (UK, US, etc)  where in addition there were already large audiences receptive to jazz and blues and hence big bucks to be made. Probably that made the difference, and maybe why Jean luc Ponty and Jan Hammer, etc chose the path that they did...


From soggy Oregon, USA....far, far from european soil, but searching for enlightenment from my fellow proggers...:)

aldri7


















Edited by aldri7 - January 22 2013 at 15:08
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moshkito View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 10:47
Hi,
 
Funny thing ... guess where "database" comes in, first and importantly ... in a discussion such as this ... by taking "away" the separate nationalities.
 
Unffortunately, ALL music is so tied and related to its culture and the differences are what music history has been about for over 500 years. I have always thought that the stick, and the time keeping (fabulously shown to us with Salieri in a movie!) ... is a perfect example of how the upper class, does not want music to be brought down to the "public", and that "discipline" (or "timing") is important to ... keep control of the masses ... and remember that this was 350 years ago!
 
I know it's a subliminal type message, but maybe that is the reason I hate to see a drummer wasted to satisfy a time-keeping requirement, that is a part of "popular music" that has ALWAYS been thought of as "uneducated" music!
 
TO ME ... a lot of this "progressive music" ... is just about this ... showing that even other folks that are not necessarily a part of the "establishment" are also great musicians that can create outstanding work, thus my reasons for always making fun of the upper crust and the lower crust as well ... because sometimes the idea of just fighting for figthing's sakes and someone else collects the money ... is my idea of ripping off, and manipulating folks!  Which religion is next?


Edited by moshkito - January 22 2013 at 10:52
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

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