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Comparing prog from different countries

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aldri7 View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 04 2013 at 00:53
Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by aginor

I have to be honest abou this, and that is that i also think there is also a influence from bard traditions in prog as well,in both English prog and also Scandinavian, the bards ballad style, as ballads is a different style as folk and classical is different, styles, and ballad style is very popular amon the early prog, the telling of a story, of romantic and epic realations,

to me Ian Anderson ans Peter Gabriel, were to me modern bards (court bards). with their flutes, or lutes, or acoustic guitar.
 
Aginor ... that's way too educated and knowledgeable for a supposedly progressive board. Now stop that or people will think that we are insulting their intelligence!!!!  Confused   Wink 
 

Well I was sort of searching for something like this when I asked what the tradition was that these guys (Ian Anderson, Peter Gabriel) were drawing upon with their prog. So that is good to know, because for me over here in the USA, I can sense these influences but i don't really know them first hand. I think though that I was also referring specifically to the classic prog vocal style, and if anyone could trace that to a particular bard poet or singer or whatever, that would be really cool....

Moshkito - nice to hear from another Portlander. :)  I tend to wonder what percentage of the people on this board are from the UK.  I met a guy on another board from the UK who said he thought the Northwest US was the only part of our country worth visiting. Why? You want the same weather that you have back home?? :)

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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2013 at 18:04
Originally posted by aldri7

...I think though that I was also referring specifically to the classic prog vocal style, and if anyone could trace that to a particular bard poet or singer or whatever, that would be really cool....
...
 
If we could do that, and do it right, then we would have to put Roy Harper and Peter Hammill, in that corner, and then on the left corner Bob Dylan and Neil Young ... and we would end up with a nasty fight ... and disagreements ... but folks on this board thinking Peter H as a bard? ... he is ... the ultimate bard! With or without electricity. Specially when you consider the "stream of consciousness" that is usually a given with most bards ... though we kinda think of them in a more Shakespearean context than otherwise, since no one else has any idea of what a Bard is ... "wordsmith" would be a more apt description, but I'm not sure that the folks in this board were looking for that at all ... would make a more interesting paper for college, though, than some empty, half-baked rock story!
 
But it is not hard to show some of these.
 
Ange- France - Jacques Brel, with a touch of Bertold Brecht and Kurt Weill.
 
The Italians are quite classical minded and the stories and lyrics tend to shape up like the classics do, in the styles that they are written. Kinda makes you think that Italian music came out of a complete rejection and hate for all schools of music, and that things like Banco, Le Orme, PFM, were more a way to show up their teachers, than otherwise ... look ... I have albums to show for my work .. you don't!
 
Spanish - Usually too stuck up on the "story" form that has been a tradition of their music since the 1500's, which came from the bard'ic traditions. However, the best known Spanish writers in the last 300 years, have been, almost exclusively, folks that broke that tradition!!!!! But the rock music and progressive bands in the 70's? ... back to the Bard tradition!
 
English - very folk oriented for my ears, mostly coming from the northern part of the country where most of it originated. I can not sit here and give you details of between Irish and Welsh for example, but there is a very serious bard tradition here of individualism ... which is highly visible in some of their folks. Roy Harper is as good a bard and poet as anyone could ever consider. And in many ways, Kevin Ayers also fits since he was more interested in the words and songs, than he was in the fame, and that is also a very important bard concept. You "point" the wording ... and so forth! And Kevin was magnificent at that, even in fun!
 
American - very territorial, but the 19th and 20th century pretty much killed all the culture that was not white and british based, and it is well known that the "pioneers" that came West pretty much deleted everything they encountered, up to and including the natives. It will take another 100 or 200 years for these to rise up again, I think, unless something new happens, which is more than likely. Rather independent and political. And the 20th century has made sure they are not heard or forgotten, but many folks slipped through the cracks when you see/hear Woodie Guthrie, Pete Seger, and then the Californians of the 50's ... who no one knows, but a huge number of their songs, keep getting played everywhere, in versions that gives them more creedence than otherwise ...
 
Brazil and Argentina - extremely political in origin and history ... and in fact, the popular tradition makes sure that these are not heard or seen, but many folks stand out ... and some of them even stand for their old culture that has been destroyed or killed. Same thing for Argentina, whose indigenous population has been completely wiped out by the westerners that occupied it to steal the richness of the soil.
 
I can probably generalize a couple more from the films and their history ... since it is not too far in tradition and you can see the differences real quick. But you can see, for example, the very harsh divisions in culture in places like (the old) Soviet Union between their many areas ... and the films always showed you many of these and many of the issues at work here and the good, the bad, the ugly ... and the horrific! I can not imagine their music not having the same similar concepts, since their literature sure does!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote aldri7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2013 at 00:27
Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by aldri7

...I think though that I was also referring specifically to the classic prog vocal style, and if anyone could trace that to a particular bard poet or singer or whatever, that would be really cool....
...
 
If we could do that, and do it right, then we would have to put Roy Harper and Peter Hammill, in that corner, and then on the left corner Bob Dylan and Neil Young ... and we would end up with a nasty fight ... and disagreements ... but folks on this board thinking Peter H as a bard? ... he is ... the ultimate bard! With or without electricity. Specially when you consider the "stream of consciousness" that is usually a given with most bards ... though we kinda think of them in a more Shakespearean context than otherwise, since no one else has any idea of what a Bard is ... "wordsmith" would be a more apt description, but I'm not sure that the folks in this board were looking for that at all ... would make a more interesting paper for college, though, than some empty, half-baked rock story!
 
But it is not hard to show some of these.
 
Ange- France - Jacques Brel, with a touch of Bertold Brecht and Kurt Weill.
 
The Italians are quite classical minded and the stories and lyrics tend to shape up like the classics do, in the styles that they are written. Kinda makes you think that Italian music came out of a complete rejection and hate for all schools of music, and that things like Banco, Le Orme, PFM, were more a way to show up their teachers, than otherwise ... look ... I have albums to show for my work .. you don't!
 
Spanish - Usually too stuck up on the "story" form that has been a tradition of their music since the 1500's, which came from the bard'ic traditions. However, the best known Spanish writers in the last 300 years, have been, almost exclusively, folks that broke that tradition!!!!! But the rock music and progressive bands in the 70's? ... back to the Bard tradition!
 
English - very folk oriented for my ears, mostly coming from the northern part of the country where most of it originated. I can not sit here and give you details of between Irish and Welsh for example, but there is a very serious bard tradition here of individualism ... which is highly visible in some of their folks. Roy Harper is as good a bard and poet as anyone could ever consider. And in many ways, Kevin Ayers also fits since he was more interested in the words and songs, than he was in the fame, and that is also a very important bard concept. You "point" the wording ... and so forth! And Kevin was magnificent at that, even in fun!
 
American - very territorial, but the 19th and 20th century pretty much killed all the culture that was not white and british based, and it is well known that the "pioneers" that came West pretty much deleted everything they encountered, up to and including the natives. It will take another 100 or 200 years for these to rise up again, I think, unless something new happens, which is more than likely. Rather independent and political. And the 20th century has made sure they are not heard or forgotten, but many folks slipped through the cracks when you see/hear Woodie Guthrie, Pete Seger, and then the Californians of the 50's ... who no one knows, but a huge number of their songs, keep getting played everywhere, in versions that gives them more creedence than otherwise ...
 
Brazil and Argentina - extremely political in origin and history ... and in fact, the popular tradition makes sure that these are not heard or seen, but many folks stand out ... and some of them even stand for their old culture that has been destroyed or killed. Same thing for Argentina, whose indigenous population has been completely wiped out by the westerners that occupied it to steal the richness of the soil.
 
I can probably generalize a couple more from the films and their history ... since it is not too far in tradition and you can see the differences real quick. But you can see, for example, the very harsh divisions in culture in places like (the old) Soviet Union between their many areas ... and the films always showed you many of these and many of the issues at work here and the good, the bad, the ugly ... and the horrific! I can not imagine their music not having the same similar concepts, since their literature sure does!

this is much more of an authoritative reply than I could have imagined. :)

Regarding the italians - I've always tended to regard heavy metal, or at least a sizable segment of it, as being "italian". And especially as it tends to become more prog like with vocalists that are, if not operatic, at least much more so when compared to english prog vocalists. To see a classical or operatic influence in metal might seem to be stretching it, but it is definitely there. But I agree with your assessment that the italians "are quite classical minded". 
Not so much Bard. And that comes through in their metal and prog metal.

Americans have always been by nature somewhat in rebellion against classical music as they were always in rebellion against aristocracy. The classical tradition is strong in Boston and among other wealthy east coast families, in San Francisco, Puget Sound, many parts of the midwest, and among the mormans. Elsewhere.......its blues (or blues derived music) or country or its nothing at all. The dust bowl tradition in music (if there is such a thing) probably influenced California mid 20th century. 

In the US, its interesting to take note though of how classical music thrives in so many households way out on the prairie, far away from any major cities or orchestras. Many pioneers took their 19th century music, their piano and other instruments, etc with them when they headed west and held on to them fiercely. A lot of creativity has come out of that environment - isolated households in Utah, Oklahoma, Iowa, etc where kids grew up surrounded by the classics and doting parents with little else to do but nurture their talent. Jimmy Webb was from Oklahoma, and his talent was truly unique. Another unique talent was Michael Hedges, from Sacramento but who was schooled in Oklahoma. These guys weren't ever influenced by blues or country. They were too isolated from that which is what makes them so interesting. But the other point is that to those in NY, these areas are a "cultural wasteland". I really would like though to try and draw up a list of really gifted individuals from this supposed wasteland, and compare it to a list of the same from NY. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2013 at 09:42
Originally posted by aldri7

... this is much more of an authoritative reply than I could have imagined. :)
  
It's more from my experience in travelling from Portugal to Brazil (1959), then Brazil to Madison, WI (1966) and then Madison to Santa Barbara, CA (1972) and then the Pacific Northwest since 1982. Well travelled in the I-5 corridor, you could say ... and there is a lot of variance in the music, though as you go north there is way too much country and western for my tastes ... and it maybe ok for places like Pendleton, OR with its big Round-Up, but in Seattle, it's like ... out of place ... cows in Seattle? Just like cows in LA?
 
Originally posted by aldri7

...
To see a classical or operatic influence in metal might seem to be stretching it, but it is definitely there. But I agree with your assessment that the italians "are quite classical minded".  Not so much Bard. And that comes through in their metal and prog metal.
 
I can hear this ... but then, that would suggest a "cultured ear" as it is called, of which there are many folks here with similar abilities, though I think that some of them can only discuss rock music, and not the peripheral music around it.
 
The fact of the matter is that when you first learn music, most of the pieces are either simplistic popular music songs, or famous classical bits ... Beethoven's 5th opening is on my piano learning book! Thus, the learning tends to become classical minded.
 
We learned this in an advanced acting class, that had an advanced lab with it, where we had a chance to experiment and try different things ... and you find out real quick that most really good acting is getting away from your own bits and pieces and influences and tendencies ... which is not something that most folks learn about when you are learning to play, on top of the fact that 99 out of 100 teachers do not know what individuality is when playing something ... another important exercise in acting!
 
Sorry to use acting as the example, but to me this is extremely visible in places that love to play "the blues", or "this" or "that" ... and you find out real quick that the music talent is diluted severely and that the individuality suffers because of the rigidity of what you have to do ... and be compared to someone else! ... which means your road to fame is lost for the most part!
 
But I always thought that the rock musicians that did the long cuts and pieces as the "modern composer" of this century, and this is where we all have failed ... we are still looking at too much of this stuff as a hit, a song, a ... anything ... except ... music! and a part of music history ... with one major issue ... the "bard'ic studies are not considered major or important ... why? ... just like pop music ... it is not considered a literary/artistic work because of its stream of conscious and lack of record and written history or form ... which of course, is almost impossible to determine, since it is mostly improvised and has no "form", to speak off as there is no history of it to determine a "form". The history of the arts, basically has never considered those an important part of the history of any of their arts, but it sure made a stronger impression in the 20th century than any other century and I think that "recording" ... is the difference ... all of a sudden, you can see more and learn more about all this stuff, that was difficult to do, then.
 
But in the process, this also shows that there are less differences than we might think ... and I'm not sure that the BARD in the Chinese Imperial days, is any different than the BARD in the Latin American days ... which I think is great. But it also tells you that there is a major discrepancy and understanding on literary and other traditions that are not documented enough for us to even be able to grab a good history off it.
 
And yeah ,.. all that is left is generalizations!


Edited by moshkito - March 20 2013 at 09:54
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chozal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2013 at 16:56
French Prog seemed pretty desperate from the start (Ange / Magma), much like what is going on nowadays in the global prog scene imo
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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2013 at 08:46
Originally posted by Chozal

French Prog seemed pretty desperate from the start (Ange / Magma), much like what is going on nowadays in the global prog scene imo
 
I didn't think so.
 
I thought that Ange was actually rather positive and had a slight internal spiritual/sensitive edge ... "ecoute ... ecoute ... " and it was really well done ... though I still think that this was influenced indirectly by Pink Floyd's "Meddle" album cover with the soundwaves moving through the water onto an ear, it seems! It's a way of saying ... pay attention ... and I don't think you would be saying that if you didn't care, or had something good to say or stand up for!
 
The likes of Alan Stivel, had his own Celtic crusade of his own people in Brittany ... folks have an idea that "Celt" is all in the Brittish Isles, and it never was all from there, though one could say the roots might have been similar. Very political, but I never thought it was not positive, and "The Celtic Symphony" is very positive, with its party like fun and atmosphere in the last side! The Brittish tried to extinguish this just like the French did their counterparts! Nothing new here! Depressing and very sad history all around, if you ask me, though so much of that history has been wiped from the map just like the Natives in America by the supposed more religious white man!
 
Magma, was, to me, no different than something like "Star Trek" ... European style! And it was just fine and musically very good and exciting and different. No matter that its main thrust might have been Carl Orff -- whom it resembles the most in "Carmina Burana", although, the content via the lyrics, as "translated" show something a bit more important than the stuff that goes on in Carl Orff's piece, which is a whole bunch of priests dissing the church and their catechism. By comparison, Magma's is much more interesting and not so vicious ... but I think that some of the Germanic, or revolutionary tone in Magma's work, could have folks concerned, to the point that later, people were comparing that work to Wagner and Nazi this and that, when the cover had them dressed as pigs! Which was very PF and an expression well used in America in the late 60's and early 70's!
 
I have never thought of either one as "desperate" unless your meaning/translation is different than what I think. However, you are comparing 40 years ... ago to today, and I am not sure that is a good thing to do ... when this stuff came up, there were issues ... and those artists addressed them as they could and would ... and today it is different, with one major concession ... too much of the music today, is simply radio/internet music, and a lot of its lyrical content is rather trivial in my estimation, and you can see that ... there is nothing to fight for ... please check the history of the late 60's and early 70's ... so you can see why things were ... so "desperate" as you say ... and I will gladly tell you that today, things are quite peaceful ... to the point of being really annoying ... because the arts suffer when they don't mean a lot to anyone ... and today, no one cares about art, or anything ... it's all pop music and sounds the same -- so folks here post that they want something that sounds like ... which tells you that they are not really listening to the music ... that one sound or effect speaks for them instead ... and as the man once said ... the father and I were one, and since then no one gives a merde anyway! It's better to confuse people than to help!
 
It was not the case, then, by the way.


Edited by moshkito - March 27 2013 at 08:53
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

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