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Snow Dog View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2013 at 04:35
Even is if there ius a connection  between harvest and Suppers i don't see why it is releveant. And your swipe at me and  Hercules is totally uncalled  for. You don't know how many people agree with us but the fact is on this thread we represent 33% of opinion. So don't put me in the ghetto just yet!Angry

Edited by Snow Dog - January 18 2013 at 04:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2013 at 04:43
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

The Canterbury Scene referred to a specific set of artists who emanated from, erm, Canterbury at that time, and was, actually, referred to as such at the time.

That sub-genre should not have accepted any new bands since circa 1976, for the simple reason that no new bands from Canterbury with that particular mindset have started since then. Any Canterbury "copyists", or influenced bands would, surely, belong in Neo? Certainly so, given that we do not accept neo as being a wholly symphonic sub-genre?
Eeeeh, first off Canterbury even at the time was as much about the specific set of musicians involved as it was about their geographic location, so I don't think it's unfair to include projects like Phil Miller's In Cahoots stuff under the subgenre.

Secondly, there's a plethora of ways in which bands like Cos or Picchio dal Pozzo were very clearly picking up what the Canterbury gang were doing and running with it so including their albums under that subgenre makes sense.

Thirdly, revisionism isn't of itself a bad thing if it helps us understand what was going on better. For most people, there's a clear discontinuity between symphonic prog of the 70s and early-80s neo, and that isn't necessarily untrue just because it's easier to see in retrospect than it was at the time.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2013 at 06:14
Originally posted by SaltyJon SaltyJon wrote:

As far as I'm concerned, it's all in good fun.  I've heard just about every brand of comment under the sun about my favorites, and I must say people can get creative...I think a little healthy rivalry never hurt anyone. Wink


Perhaps.  And in the collab zone or in areas like the shred where people know each other, I'd agree.  In open forum where potential new users may be reading an active prog thread, i think such comments can be unwelcoming.  We're trying to attract prog fans, not insult groups of them.   I do know people who will not engage here because of the rather prevalent snark factor which is a shame.  Neo gets more than their fair share of bash. 

And my comments are not aimed at you specifically Jon, but the point in general.  You treat people well as far as I've seen.

Merry Christmas!



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2013 at 06:20
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

"Neo"  just means new.  It doesn't mean "psuedo."  Maybe
some people are confusing this.
exactly
 
for me neo was just a style of prog that was more emotionally grounded and less 'flowery'. However its often thought of as a watered down version of 'real' prog which is wht Orford doesn't like the term. That said the bands were not as talented as the ELP's and Genesis and Yes's of the world. They had to establish themselves but certainly played on the nostalgia associated with prog. About 1983 there was a revival in proper bands generally as people got fed up with MTV mass produced pop where the producers were more important than the so called bands.
 
the supposed re birth of 'real' prog in the 90's as already stated came from Scandanavia but more specifically Par Lindh who formed the Swedish Art Rock Society. I think it also gained a little bit more momentum from the emergence of Radiohead who were suddenly labelled ''Prog'' from nowhere.I think it shocked them but I remember at the time it brought prog much more into the mainstream.One popular publication (Daily Mail I think) even directly compared Radiohead to Yes and Pink Floyd ho ho.
 
Back tracking slightly , IQ themselves adapted their music when they released Ever in 1993. That was almost a re birth of neo prog in my eyes. Neo prog evolved as a style and as already mentioned most of the bands associated with it are not creating the same style of music nowadays.
 
Orford is being a tiny bit hypocritical. The connection between Harvest Of Souls and Suppers Ready is very obvious even if apparently only two people are not able to see it! At the time he was upset that IQ didn't get due credit for making such an expansive work. I guess it may have contributed to his retirement but he shouldn't and needn't be so sensitive imo.
Aye - i'm, having this as possibly the last word on the subject because it covers most things fairly succinctly. The Harvest of souls / Suppers Ready connection is obvious in the finale especially - but the epic still has plenty of original themes in it to be a fine track that I enjoy listening to. Anyway, nobody sl*g.ed Wakeman for the Hall of the Mountain King passage in JTTCOTE......I feel that classic 70's prog themes re-worked and perhaps lengthened (you know how turned on I am by prodigious length Tongue) should be part of the Phase IV symphonic prog movement.....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2013 at 07:53
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

"Neo"  just means new.  It doesn't mean "psuedo."  Maybe
some people are confusing this.
exactly
 
for me neo was just a style of prog that was more emotionally grounded and less 'flowery'. However its often thought of as a watered down version of 'real' prog which is wht Orford doesn't like the term. That said the bands were not as talented as the ELP's and Genesis and Yes's of the world. They had to establish themselves but certainly played on the nostalgia associated with prog. About 1983 there was a revival in proper bands generally as people got fed up with MTV mass produced pop where the producers were more important than the so called bands.
 
the supposed re birth of 'real' prog in the 90's as already stated came from Scandanavia but more specifically Par Lindh who formed the Swedish Art Rock Society. I think it also gained a little bit more momentum from the emergence of Radiohead who were suddenly labelled ''Prog'' from nowhere.I think it shocked them but I remember at the time it brought prog much more into the mainstream.One popular publication (Daily Mail I think) even directly compared Radiohead to Yes and Pink Floyd ho ho.
 
Back tracking slightly , IQ themselves adapted their music when they released Ever in 1993. That was almost a re birth of neo prog in my eyes. Neo prog evolved as a style and as already mentioned most of the bands associated with it are not creating the same style of music nowadays.
 
Orford is being a tiny bit hypocritical. The connection between Harvest Of Souls and Suppers Ready is very obvious even if apparently only two people are not able to see it! At the time he was upset that IQ didn't get due credit for making such an expansive work. I guess it may have contributed to his retirement but he shouldn't and needn't be so sensitive imo.
Aye - i'm, having this as possibly the last word on the subject because it covers most things fairly succinctly. The Harvest of souls / Suppers Ready connection is obvious in the finale especially - but the epic still has plenty of original themes in it to be a fine track that I enjoy listening to. Anyway, nobody sl*g.ed Wakeman for the Hall of the Mountain King passage in JTTCOTE......I feel that classic 70's prog themes re-worked and perhaps lengthened (you know how turned on I am by prodigious length Tongue) should be part of the Phase IV symphonic prog movement.....

Quoting Grieg (Wakeman), Beethoven and Rimsky-Korsakov (Renaissance) is a little different from quoting an existing band but it's not a crime until it's clearly a quote. Otherwise is a copy. Transatlantic quoted Deep Purple in the Whirlwind live, too. Nothing against that. The central part of Marillion's Grendel is more a copy than a quote, but I like that epic so much that I don't care.

Also the final guitar solo of Grendel has been reused on Forgotten Sons and this concerns me more, but they are absolutely the two best Marillion's songs IMO.

In classical music quoting, reinterpreting (variation on somebody else's theme) was normal. In 17th century people was not thinking of copyrights and everybody knows that many big composers have taken inspiration from popular folk. There's am Italian folk song known as "Madama Dore'" which has become the central theme of "I Pini Di Roma" by Ottorino Respighi. 

Personally I have sometimes played in cover bands when I was young, and when not doing covers I was aware to be a wannabe of Pink Floyd and Camel, but I was liking their sound so much that I didn't care. The pleasure in hearing my guitar sounding like Latimer's (not properly the same unfortunately) was great. I have never thougth to become a professional player. Probably it's because of that that I have rated the Unicorn "Genesis Soundscape Project" with three stars. If you want to sound exactly as your idols and succeed I don't see anything bad if it's clearly stated.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2013 at 07:57
The problem I have with the bigger new/neo prog bands is that they do not seem to have the
same classical and world music influences that the older, major bands did.  Much of what
they do seems inspired by blues scales, or modes that I've heard a million times.   And when
I say new, I mean things after 1990, or around that time.  ELP/Genesis and even Yes (which
seemed to have an interesting world music/folk influence at times) music is more complex
because it is harmonically so, it's using scales and modes and chord changes that are
more complex. It's not anyone's opinion, it's scientific fact.  A lot of newer bands I don't like
simply because they are focused more on blues scales.  There is a major older "prog" band, whose
name I won't name, that also falls into this category, and I've never really liked them (it's
not Pink Floyd).



Edited by brainstormer - January 18 2013 at 07:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2013 at 08:03
scientific fact?
 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2013 at 08:20
Using chord changes and scales more complex than blues is not scientific, it's easy LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2013 at 08:36
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

scientific fact?
 

Quick, get him in charge of the brand new "scientific fact" sub genre which is bound to arise as a result of the debateConfused


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2013 at 08:37
I just mean you can analyze it and compare the two without emotion, just
using the intellect.  It's not really based on opinion, as in, this music is
better than that music. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2013 at 08:43
Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

I just mean you can analyze it and compare the two without emotion, just
using the intellect.  It's not really based on opinion, as in, this music is
better than that music. 
It is a musicalogical observation, it isn't scientific or fact.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2013 at 08:46
Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

I just mean you can analyze it and compare the two without emotion, just
using the intellect.  It's not really based on opinion, as in, this music is
better than that music. 

I think we knew what you meant, and we were, I hope, only poking fun at you.

However, being serious, I, for one, rather wish people would not endlessly analyse music, without emotion. There is far too much of it on this site (others are also guilty, but I think we are the worse culprits). It's music, for heaven's sake. Music, there to be enjoyed, to be moved by, to become emotionally charged by and with, not, as some would have it, there to be categorised and pilloried just because the fourth part of the fifth movement of the second track does not contain sufficient types of instruments or ways of playing to fit it into a particular sub-genre, most of which are entirely of our own pedantic making anyway.

I despair.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2013 at 08:46
Arguing semantics.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2013 at 08:51
What about stop all labels and just listen to music?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2013 at 08:54
Originally posted by Roxbrough Roxbrough wrote:

What about stop all labels and just listen to music?

See the debate on Improve The Site (Revolutionise the Site). That is precisely what I am arguing, but, aside from a couple of hardy souls, I am very much alone.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2013 at 09:02
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Roxbrough Roxbrough wrote:

What about stop all labels and just listen to music?

See the debate on Improve The Site (Revolutionise the Site). That is precisely what I am arguing, but, aside from a couple of hardy souls, I am very much alone.

Well as you know I  am very much behind you. And I would get rid of the Neo tag also.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2013 at 09:14
Originally posted by Roxbrough Roxbrough wrote:

What about stop all labels and just listen to music?
Not a bad idea, but with thousands of artists searching just alphabetically is not good. As reviewer, when I try to describe something "new" I often compare what I hear with something well known. Subgenres can help in this sense  even when they are not very appropriated or the artist is controversial. I think Vangelis is on prog related only because he moved from JR/F to Symphonic, to Progressive Electronic, to Krautrock, to Avant, (the B-side of Heaven and Hell may fit in Zeuhl, too) that assigning him to a specific subgenre is impossible.

But if you remove ALL the labels this would become www.archives.com and couldn't be distinguished from metal archives and jazzmusic-archives, too. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2013 at 09:28
^ and just become rateyourmusic.com


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2013 at 10:54
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Roxbrough Roxbrough wrote:

What about stop all labels and just listen to music?

See the debate on Improve The Site (Revolutionise the Site). That is precisely what I am arguing, but, aside from a couple of hardy souls, I am very much alone.

Well as you know I  am very much behind you. And I would get rid of the Neo tag also.

I know mate, and it is appreciated.

And, referring to Dean's post, I fail to see how getting rid of the sub-genres would turn us into rateyour music.com. It would still be Prog Archives, because we would only allow prog music and prog related here. 

Also, if I were searching for something, I would not search for Genesis under symphonic prog. I would search for Genesis. I also don't buy this argument that the sub-genres help people buy or listen to similar music. If, say, we take Genesis as an example again, and you look at the top symphonic albums, you would come across The Flower Kings. Similar? A million miles apart, aside from being in the same sub-genre here. It does not follow that if yo like Genesis, you will like TFK. Also, the label itself is ridiculous. You and I are fans of latter day Genesis, but symphonic? Might as well call the dog the cat.

Neo, the subject of this thread, is the most ridiculous label, alongside crossover. Both are, these days, merely receptacles for stuff other teams don't want in many cases. Not all, but certainly many. All neo prog ever was is the name given to a bunch of bands who took up prog in the eighties, virtually all of whom make music now which bears little or no relation to that stuff. There is no such thing as a definitive version of neo prog. Such a thing never, ever, existed, not then, and certainly not now.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2013 at 11:01
^Agreed. Someone posted earlier that the only Neo prog album they liked was Script. Well that album is  far from Neo as described here. So thge label is unhelpful. Not sure what point I'm trying to make. Oh yes.....New Wave Of Prog would apply better to it. Can't say I like that clumsy description either though. But is more explanatory at least.
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