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Tom Ozric View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2013 at 22:56
............and put it this way - I was not too impressed when I heard I.T. back in 1987 - most of its songs were getting airplay, and only the 'Domino' epic was memorable for me.  When I heard the self-titled album at the same time in 1987, it was a different story.......haha heh, owww............
I will apologise for the offensive name I gave it, but I won't apologise for not liking the damn thing........
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2013 at 20:59
Originally posted by Roland113 Roland113 wrote:

. . . and finally . . .
 
(Yes, I separated my thoughts into three separate posts to keep the individual thoughts distinct from each other.)
 
Regarding Invisible Touch, it is so incredibly easy to bash the album twenty five years after it was released.  In doing so, you are marginalizing the infuence that it had on modern prog.  Like it or not, it was probably the most infuential album in my life.
 

I bashed the album the day I heard it for the first time, about 25 years ago.

I don't believe it's influential for anything.


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 26 2013 at 00:14
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2013 at 20:17
. . . and finally . . .
 
(Yes, I separated my thoughts into three separate posts to keep the individual thoughts distinct from each other.)
 
Regarding Invisible Touch, it is so incredibly easy to bash the album twenty five years after it was released.  In doing so, you are marginalizing the infuence that it had on modern prog.  Like it or not, it was probably the most infuential album in my life.
 
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

. . . and who wouldn't - Genesis decided that their old fans should be consigned to history and set about entertaining a whole lot of teeny boppers whilst trousering huge wads of cash...
 
 
Please Rob, explain to me how they consigned their old fans to history yet still played "In the Cage" and "Cinema Show" on the tour?  Each and every tour that they did from Abacab and onwards included some componant of their older prog music.  No, they didn't play 70's prog throughout the entire show, any band that focused exclusively on their older material and ignored the current album would be shooting itself in the foot. 
 
Yeah, you can talk about them selling out, but how much of the third wave first got into prog from the populatity of this album?
 
 
Originally posted by Tom Ozrics Tom Ozrics wrote:

  give me 'The Wake' over 'Invisible Douche' anyday...
 
 
Really?  Way to keep it classy and respectful.  Though you did manage to get a few tag alongs.  Clap
 
 
As I alluded to earlier, Invisible Touch (and 90125 for the Yes camp) was a horribly influential album and frankly was a gateway to an entire generation of prog listeners.  In the late eighties, prog was pretty much dead here in America.  We had little access to Marillion and even less to IQ and Pendragon.  Unless you had a cool Dad or older brother that liked the classics, you were pretty much out of luck.  MTV was in it's heyday and popular music pretty much conformed to the tastes of MTV's audiences. 
 
Big hair was in as was half naked trollops (don't get me wrong, I loved the trollops, they just wern't producing great music).  Yet, somehow, three middle aged guys with a bald lead singer manager to break through the barriers of the day with an album that not only sold millions, but was pretty damn good musically especially when compared to the majority of music being produced at the time.  Tonight Tonight Tonight was a legitimate hit that had definite prog leanings and obviously, Domino and The Brazillian had heavier prog influences. 
 
The important thing here is that it inspired a generation of teeny boppers to explore the Genesis back catalog and get blown away by Selling England.  It's not just me, there are a slew of other fans that I've talked to over the years that feel similar.  It is easy to listen to the electronic drums on Invisible Touch and say they sound like crapby today's standards, but it's as much the sound of the eighties as mellotrons and organs epitomize the sound of the seventies. 
 
Yes, I realize that I may be taking the comments here a bit personally, but frankly, I'm not going to sit around and listen to one of my favorite albums be absolutely disrepected by a leader on thie site for a few sophmoric laughs and then watch a few of the more respected members on the site encourage the behaviour.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I really expect a higher level of class here.  I'm not going to say that Invisible Touch is as good as Selling England, but without Invisible Touch, many of your forty year old teeny boppers wouldn't be on the site today.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2013 at 19:29
On a different matter, I totally see the comparissons between Suppers Ready and Harvest of Souls.  Here is an excerpt from a review of Dark Matter that I did in 2009:

. . . and now we come to the big epic ending. I'm sorry, but this is one of the less inspired of IQ's epics. I jokingly refer to it as "Harvest of Suppers" due to the extreme similarities to the previously mentioned "Supper's Ready" (SR) by Genesis. "Harvest of Souls" (HOS) starts off with an oddly familiar twelve string guitar arpeggio which goes as far as to start with the same exact note as SR. The soft guitar lasts for the first four minutes before it transitions to a more upbeat organ led part, again, similar to SR. If that's not enough, on SR the drums start at four minutes, twenty three seconds, on HOS, the drums appear at four minutes sixteen seconds. After about a minute, the upbeat part ends to return to another soft interlude followed by a chaotic section. Yes, the previous sentence applies to both songs. You get the point, both songs have a total stop in the middle, in SR it's just before "Willow Farms", in HOS it's just before the "Frame and Form" section, both at about the half way point of the song. The "Mortal Procession" section uses the same 6/8 rhythm as in "Born Brilliant" which again is a call back to "Apocalypse in 9/8". Finally, both pieces have the big ending, long drawn out chords and vocal climax. Basically, "Harvest of Souls" is an updated version of "Supper's Ready". Pardon me, but I prefer the original.
 
 
The whole review can be found here:
 
 
Yeah, I've felt that the two songs were very similar for years.


Edited by Roland113 - January 25 2013 at 21:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2013 at 19:25
So I've been travelling for the past two weeks and really haven't had any time to devote to this thread despite my interest in it.  I spent the last hour reading all eleven pages and have a few thoughts to share.
 
Off the bat, I will go on record with saying that I love Neoprog and have no problem with the term.  This is my opinion, but as a general rule, I enjoy the neo bands that use modern technology to influence their craft over modern bands that try to recreate the music of the seventies by emulating the Melotron every chance they get.  Every one has their own preference, I get it.  There are going to be just as many that hate the cheese of modern synths or the noise of a modern sounding, distorted and heavy guitar while they long for a Hammond solo over a soft accoustic twelve string.
 
I think the division of the two categories is important and something that absolutely needs to be maintained.  Others mentioned this, but categorizing music makes it easier for those of us that want to use the classifications to find similar music.  Yes, I appreciate the one guy that likes to use the alphabet to find their music, but please allow me to be a bit Neo and use modern technology to make my searching a bit more effeciant. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2013 at 16:27
Originally posted by SMSM SMSM wrote:

So he wants his music to be known as the new wave of progressive rock?
 
New Wave was another term for poppy punk bands and sometimes applied to new romantic bands like the Flock of Seagulls etc
Did you see how IQ dressed in the early years?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2013 at 14:55
So he wants his music to be known as the new wave of progressive rock?
 
New Wave was another term for poppy punk bands and sometimes applied to new romantic bands like the Flock of Seagulls etc
 
Neo prog was used to describe prog bands in the 1980's who were more song oriented and did not go off on long instrumental passages that certain prog bands in the 1970s did, which sometimes hurt the music more than it added to it.
 
Personally I would ignore any media that considers using vintage keyboards to suddenly result in playing classic prog of the 70's.
 
Such persons are only judging certain sounds and not the whole band/whole sound in general
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 23:10
Originally posted by Roxbrough Roxbrough wrote:

 
 
IQ is what? Anglagard is what? Where do you get this information? if you are going to make bold statements you should back them up with source reference, or prefix it with "in my opinion".

Sorry for the delay, just saw your post
 

IQ is a typical Neo Prog band, not here, not in my opinion, you can search any Prog site and you will find the reference

Anglagard is párt of the Symphonic revival of the 90's, born with the creation of the Swedish Art Rock Society, that rescued the Symphonic genre of the 70's, releasing original material, even using exclusively instruuments that were availlable in the 70's and tending to a more complex sound without AOR or mainstream influence if possible.

Source

IQ: 
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=165
http://www.proggnosis.com/ARTIST_Detail.aspx?AID=149}
http://www.gepr.net/i.html#IQ
http://www.progressiveears.com/default_old_sys.asp

Anglagard
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=18
http://www.proggnosis.com/ARTIST_Detail.aspx?AID=24
http://www.progressiveears.com/default_old_sys.asp
http://www.gepr.net/am.html#ANGLAGARD

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 22 2013 at 23:14
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 22:48
Hmm, I have B-Sides Themselves and find the only really good song on it is "Tux On".
I like "Grendel" as well, but it has its issues...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 13:51
You had to get their EP's, it's a remarkably nasty thing that otherwise you could not get wonderful tracks such as Market Square Heroes, Three Boats, Grendel, Charting the Single, Cinderella Search or Margaret in proper format until the release of B-Sides.
Personally I was lucky to discover those EP's quickly at their time but it's a shame for many other listeners that these great tracks remained obscure and not released in proper official albums. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 13:21
Aye - I still have that somewhere in the loft I reckon. The version of grendel is also better than what was recorded if I remember.....The Web and Forgotten sons are also far superior than the versions laid down on script....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 13:03
That high-pithced guitar "E" in the instrumental part was hypnotic. None of the official versions released later has the same sound. Unfortunately what I have is a "mono" tape dubbed from the demo that I actually borrowed from that friend.The tape had: Grendel, Three Boats Down and Garden Party. I started buying all the Marillion's releases to find those songs and I had to wait for B'sides Themselves to have an original copy of Grendel.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 12:58
It was the early eighties - possibly 1983/84 that I obtained the Demos - I think their music was also aired on the BBC's Friday Rock Show by the late Tommy Vance. Three boats down was a superb track live and Marillion didn't do it justice when they recorded it for a single.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 08:06
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

IQ are one of my favourite discovery's of the of the  last 15 years. It is such a shame I never heard of them  in the eighties.
I went through a few ups and downs with them in the eighties. I loved The Wake when it came out and couldn't wait for Nomzamo. What a let down that was at the time lacking the power and intensity that I had come to expect (although nowadays I like several songs on it and have a lot of respect for Paul Menel). I fell out of love with IQ at that point and forgot about them until about 1995 when they released Subterannea. I stumbled across it by accident in a record shop and noticed the interesting artwork and the fact that Nicholls was back. That rekindled my interest. Got to seem them play the whole of that album at the now defunct Astoria around 1999 and still remains one of favourite gigs ever.
If ELP had never existed they would be vying with Rush as my favourite band.
I would mirror this musical Journey - I missed the phase of of the greats (Live) except that I went to see Genesis in 1977 in London - absolutely amazing gig and Hackett has been a hero of mine ever since. But , with Phase II I could actually go and see prog rock bands in incredibly small & intimate gigs, Pendragon, IQ, Twelfth Night, Marillion, Pallas - all virtually unknown in main-stream music - were all dismissed as Genesis/Yes clones......I have to say that IQ is the greatest of these phase II bands by a country Mile...with pallas/Twelfth Night and Pendragon in the second tier...Marillion third....Script for a Jesters Tear...was the first massive disappointment - because I had demo tapes and seen live the proper versions of the tracks that made it onto the first release and marillion RUINED all those tracks in my eyes - possibly because they had to water down the prog for more accessible tunes. the same happened with Pallas....they actualy deny that they performed a 45 minute version of the atlantis suite at the manchester Gallery - far & above the best live performance by any band I've ever seen......
But IQ - stuck to their guns more or less - but when I had the opportunity to talk in depth about music with Mike Holmes and Martin Orford at a party held by a band called Moriarty - they spoke mainly of the influences of Genesis/Yes/Camel/ELP - but they thought they could blend those influences and produce stuff that was fresh...and I must say that they have an output that is the best of Phase II/III prog - and I would agree that Frequecy and dark Matter are bloody brilliant examples of phase II/III symphonic prog.
Peace.
By coincidence I have copies of the Marillion demos too and I have rated Script with two stars only. I had them from a relative of a friend who was back from UK. I don't remember the year but Fugazi was not released yet. And I totally agree. Also the original version of Three Boats Down From The Candy is a great song in the demo and massacred later.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 07:34
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:

Richard, how do you feel about the IQ/Menel album `Are You Sitting Comfortably?' album. I really quite enjoy it, a nice mix of undemanding prog sophistication and pleasant adult pop! No classic, but a decent album to my ears anyway.
I like it very much and probably in my top five IQ albums. Menel is a very clever lyricist. I bought his solo album that was recently released and that is very good also (although not prog in any sense). IQ during the Menel era were a bit like It Bites. Nice mix of prog and pop as you say. There is definetly room for it!

Yes, a very good album.
I found it pretty sensational when it came out.
I still like it and it's in my personal IQ top 3 even.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 07:16
Great story Barney, thanks for sharing!

The part where you said `they spoke mainly of the influences of Genesis/Yes/Camel/ELP - but they thought they could blend those influences and produce stuff that was fresh...'

This is exactly what IQ have achieved, by constantly tweaking and redefining their sound, they've produced a body of work that is more or less of a very superior quality, so many top quality releases. Some people don't appreciate the Menel era, but I like that just fine. So we therefore have a band with not a bad release!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 07:06
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

IQ are one of my favourite discovery's of the of the  last 15 years. It is such a shame I never heard of them  in the eighties.
I went through a few ups and downs with them in the eighties. I loved The Wake when it came out and couldn't wait for Nomzamo. What a let down that was at the time lacking the power and intensity that I had come to expect (although nowadays I like several songs on it and have a lot of respect for Paul Menel). I fell out of love with IQ at that point and forgot about them until about 1995 when they released Subterannea. I stumbled across it by accident in a record shop and noticed the interesting artwork and the fact that Nicholls was back. That rekindled my interest. Got to seem them play the whole of that album at the now defunct Astoria around 1999 and still remains one of favourite gigs ever.
If ELP had never existed they would be vying with Rush as my favourite band.
I would mirror this musical Journey - I missed the phase of of the greats (Live) except that I went to see Genesis in 1977 in London - absolutely amazing gig and Hackett has been a hero of mine ever since. But , with Phase II I could actually go and see prog rock bands in incredibly small & intimate gigs, Pendragon, IQ, Twelfth Night, Marillion, Pallas - all virtually unknown in main-stream music - were all dismissed as Genesis/Yes clones......I have to say that IQ is the greatest of these phase II bands by a country Mile...with pallas/Twelfth Night and Pendragon in the second tier...Marillion third....Script for a Jesters Tear...was the first massive disappointment - because I had demo tapes and seen live the proper versions of the tracks that made it onto the first release and marillion RUINED all those tracks in my eyes - possibly because they had to water down the prog for more accessible tunes. the same happened with Pallas....they actualy deny that they performed a 45 minute version of the atlantis suite at the manchester Gallery - far & above the best live performance by any band I've ever seen......
But IQ - stuck to their guns more or less - but when I had the opportunity to talk in depth about music with Mike Holmes and Martin Orford at a party held by a band called Moriarty - they spoke mainly of the influences of Genesis/Yes/Camel/ELP - but they thought they could blend those influences and produce stuff that was fresh...and I must say that they have an output that is the best of Phase II/III prog - and I would agree that Frequecy and dark Matter are bloody brilliant examples of phase II/III symphonic prog.
Peace.


Edited by M27Barney - January 22 2013 at 07:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 02:08
Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:

Richard, how do you feel about the IQ/Menel album `Are You Sitting Comfortably?' album. I really quite enjoy it, a nice mix of undemanding prog sophistication and pleasant adult pop! No classic, but a decent album to my ears anyway.
I like it very much and probably in my top five IQ albums. Menel is a very clever lyricist. I bought his solo album that was recently released and that is very good also (although not prog in any sense). IQ during the Menel era were a bit like It Bites. Nice mix of prog and pop as you say. There is definetly room for it!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 02:05
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

I loathe the continual sniping at Genesis post 1978. They gave me a lot of great music which I continue to enjoy to this day. Actually, I find that sniping rather intellectually lazy, given that all three of them were responsible for the 
latter albums. Not just Collins.


What about Grendel and Harvest of Souls? Both are clearly influenced by Genesis, of that there is no doubt. Actually, I find the two tracks in question to be miles apart in terms of quality and production values. Grendel was the b side of Market Square Heroes. It was a statement by Marillion of their influences, but, in truth, it doesn't even begin to compare with the band's latter output, even with Fish, let alone Hogarth.


IQ have never hidden the origins of their influence. However, I tend to agree with Ian here. It is plain that Harvest of Souls is influenced by "classic" Genesis. It is probably my most played track by the band, and no matter how many times I listen to it, I could never, ever, state that it is a Suppers Ready "copy". It stands alone fine as a fine piece of music in its own right, and I love it even more for that. In other words, they took a basic template, and stamped their own authority on it, which is as good a definition of neo as I could hope to give. 


Great post although Orford at the time was not happy about the comparisons being drawn between IQ's music and Genesis. He actually stated it was a complete coincidence because IQ had exactly the same make up in terms of numbers and instruments being played. I found it a bit fishy at the time and still do tbh.But  IQ are and will remain one of my favourite bands. BTW they followed their own template on Frequency and it worked brilliantly.

I haven't been really crazy about Pendragon, so I think I'll give IQ a chance next. Tales from the Lush Attic seems to be a widespread favorite.

I remember a radio interview with Marillion in the 80s, Fish and the keyboardist. A caller asked them why they sounded so much like Genesis. I thought it was strange how defensive they were about it. I tend to think if they were more forthright it would have been more cathartic for everyone, but in playing it down they sounded like politicians playing an off note. Personally, I don't think the differences that existed between them and Genesis were for the better. I kept waiting for some sort of crazy eccentric instrumental piece from Marillion. I was really into the Waiting Room and other such oddities at the time. I was kind of disgusted by the time of Misplaced Childhood that they hadn't put a single instrumental on record. The only purpose for the music was to set the mood for the vocal. They didn't have any sort of instrumental excursions live either the one time I saw them. I haven't a clue what they're like post-Fish.
There is a lovely remix of Tales From The Lush Attic just released that I would recommend. The Wake is more closer to what people think is 'neo prog. so may want to approach that with caution but certainly give Tales a go and see how you digest it. The Last Human Gateway is one of my favourite prog tracks of any era. Totally original and unique peice and played with a lot more flair than you might be expecting.
As far as Marillion goes I prefer the Hogath era especially Marbles, Seasons End and Sounds That Can't Be Made. That said the DVD of Marillion playing in Germany (Lorely) just after Clutching at Straws is superb but I for some reason I could never connect with their studio albums which seemed a bit lacking in excitement. I suspect Marillion (with Fish) were much better as a live band. Inititially they built their reputation playing festivals established a fanatical following that has endured to this day.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 02:00
Richard, how do you feel about the IQ/Menel album `Are You Sitting Comfortably?' album. I really quite enjoy it, a nice mix of undemanding prog sophistication and pleasant adult pop! No classic, but a decent album to my ears anyway.
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