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lucas View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: stop the "Neo" prog label ?
    Posted: January 17 2013 at 04:29
As you may know, Martin Orford of IQ is very unhappy of the tag allocated to the music he plays with IQ or Jadis, and in general to the prog rock scene that arose in the early eighties. He would prefer his music to be labeled "New Wave of Progressive Rock" as he feels offended when the press qualified the bands of the late nineties as "genuine" progressive rock (beacause of the use of vintage keyboards) as opposed to the "neo" progressive rock scene (due to the use of modern keyboards or electronic drums).

Here are Martin orford's views on the "neo" label :
http://www.dprp.net/vision/index.php?id=13

I find funny the way he considers the return of vintage keys and mellotrons in modern prog bands (maybe the "old" sounding keys on 'dark matter' was a way to get more respect from the press and be considered as a "genuine" prog band).

Do you share his views about the use of the "neo" label (fake 80's prog vs today's genuine prog) ? and do you also consider that old-sounding keys don't really have their place anymore in the "2nd" New Wave of Progressive Rock (mid nineties onward) ?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2013 at 04:44
I don't care much for labels really, and I'm not a huge fan of so called 'neo-prog' but in its defence it is arguably more 'progressive' than acts that sought to sound like the bands of old through use of mellotrons etc. The neo bands of the 80's were using the technology of the day to re-interpret and re-invent prog rock, just as the classic prog bands used the technology of the day to re-interpret and re-invent rock music.

I guess the post neo prog bands who aimed to get back to that old sound are closer to being tribute acts. Specifically paying tribute to a time in music history, rather than paying tribute to specific bands. That's not to say they weren't writing good and worthy music.

This is why I have some sympathy for the view that bands like Radiohead are truly progressive, and are representative of where progressive rock is now. People don't have to like it, it's just how it is, in my humble opinion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2013 at 04:50
I honestly wish some bands would stop looking at the term `Neo Prog' as being something negative, that it somehow belittles them and makes them less worthy.

I certainly never considered Pendragon, IQ, Marillion, Jadis etc to be `fake 80's prog', rather `new prog in the grand tradtion of the establishing 70's bands', that takes elements from those bands and gives them a modern makeover, as they incorporate those elements into their own original and distinctive ideas.

I think some people use the term `Neo' in a derogative and dismissive way, as in `Neo means rip-off/clones of better bands'. While some of the Neo bands have similarities to the golden age bands, I've always found they had more than enough unique personalities, arrangements and genre-pushing ideas to stand on their own, and there's endless Neo bands I love very each.

I also find the tag an easy way to suggest these bands to a new listener, in that `If you like early 70's Genesis, you might enjoy what X band is doing' etc.

Have to say, I don't think IQ/Orford/Nicholls helped their case by essentially REMAKING `Suppers Ready' on `Dark Matter', as much as I dearly love that album!

Edited by Aussie-Byrd-Brother - January 17 2013 at 04:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2013 at 04:55
I'm yet to hear Suppers Ready on Dark Matter. I don't understand the connection
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2013 at 05:02
Originally posted by Snow Dog

I'm yet to hear Suppers Ready on Dark Matter. I don't understand the connection
Oh, I think Harvest of Souls is a clear musical and structural nod towards Supper's Ready.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2013 at 05:03

I have personally never understood this argument that using old keys makes you a 70s prog rock wannabe.

Using a Mellotron M400 for choirs is as much Genesis ripoff as using 12-string guitars, I don't even see how you can debate that. It simply IS so. And don't tell me the Mellotron had a more characteristic sound than a 12-string guitar, I won't buy that as it simply isn't true.
 
Using whatever gear you like in order to reproduce a similar sound to that of Genesis/Crimson/Yes or whatever, is of course not original at all though. It's not the gear that defines your style, it's your songwriting and playing.
 
Therefore, I would further argue that to "re-invent" prog one does not have to change the gear around, in fact that could end up being as uninventive as possible if you lack original song ideas. If you do have original song ideas then your worries are over, you WILL sound original. For me this discussion really is as simple as that. The only addition would be that some song ideas require some gear (Peter Gabriels "Melt" would have been tricky without a reverb unit ^^) so of course the gear defines the style in a way. But I think that you can complete an idea using various gear and the end result will still be as original as in any other gear configuration.


Edited by Josef_K - January 17 2013 at 05:06
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2013 at 05:05
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Snow Dog

I'm yet to hear Suppers Ready on Dark Matter. I don't understand the connection
Oh, I think Harvest of Souls is a clear musical and structural nod towards Supper's Ready.

It goes over my head then.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2013 at 05:08
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Snow Dog

I'm yet to hear Suppers Ready on Dark Matter. I don't understand the connection

Oh, I think Harvest of Souls is a clear musical and structural nod towards Supper's Ready.

`Harvest Of Souls', that's what I meant, not the whole album! Without going and grabbing it off the shelf I kind of assumed it was the title track, thanks for the clarification Dean!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2013 at 05:08
I don't really share his opinion about the term Neo, but I share his opinion that there is no reason for calling Anglagard any more "genuine" Prog than IQ is.
Neo is just a tag name, what people say about it is something else and has nothing to do with the name.

If some critics or other people critisized the use of modern synths and electronic drums and appreciated the comeback of Hammonds and Moogs, and considered Anglagard as "genuine prog" and IQ as "fake prog", they would still have said so, which difference does it make that what they critisized was called Neo-Prog or New Wave of Progressive Rock?

What does he have a problem with, is it really with the term Neo? or is it the fact that he does not agree with this concept of "genuine" and "fake" Prog? (which I certainly do not agree either).

His dislike of the term Neo comes apparently from his perception that the term Neo has a negative connotation, which I personally do not see, I like Neo and I see nothing negative in this name.
If anything he should be happy to be recognized as one of the founders of a new sub-genre of Prog, nothing can take that away from him.


 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2013 at 05:12
Originally posted by Snow Dog

Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Snow Dog

I'm yet to hear Suppers Ready on Dark Matter. I don't understand the connection
Oh, I think Harvest of Souls is a clear musical and structural nod towards Supper's Ready.

It goes over my head then.
Well it's not a carbon copy if that's what you're expecting, just as Grendel isn't a carbon copy of Supper's Ready either


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2013 at 05:14
Originally posted by Gerinski

If anything he should be happy to be recognized as one of the founders of a new sub-genre of Prog, nothing can take that away from him.

That is a really good point! He should be proud that his band is one of the founders of that sub-genre, and one of the first names people think of (hmmm, for better I worse, depending on their opinion, I guess??) when that description is given!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2013 at 05:19
Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother

Originally posted by Gerinski

If anything he should be happy to be recognized as one of the founders of a new sub-genre of Prog, nothing can take that away from him.
 

That is a really good point! He should be proud that his band is one of the founders of that sub-genre, and one of the first names people think of (hmmm, for better I worse, depending on their opinion, I guess??) when that description is given!
Of course at the time they (and I include Marillion, Pendragon and Twelfth Night here) didn't believe they were doing anything new, and certainly didn't consider themselves to be forming a new subgenre - they were just making music that happened to be Prog Rock. The "Neo" tag is a later after-the-event name, no one was called a Neo Prog band in 1984, they were just called Prog.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2013 at 05:23
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Snow Dog

Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Snow Dog

I'm yet to hear Suppers Ready on Dark Matter. I don't understand the connection
Oh, I think Harvest of Souls is a clear musical and structural nod towards Supper's Ready.

It goes over my head then.
Well it's not a carbon copy if that's what you're expecting, just as Grendel isn't a carbon copy of Supper's Ready either

I never noticed any connection at all.Ouch
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2013 at 05:29
1. Why classified anything inside neo prog term? Just for difference between vintage and modern keyboard sounds? many moder keyboard player use Nord Lead 3, Alesis Andromeda etc. and copy old vintage sounds. I really don`t see the reason why bother if someone have SC Prophet 5, Minimoog, Melotron or Korg M1, or Roland D50 or Roland A90 or VA like Novatin Supernova, Access Virus Polar etc. I don`t care even if someone use Yamaha PSR tone bank, if he finds sounds and create something with these sounds.

Gilmour from Saga used many different models, from pure analog, over VA to pure digital and stops on Korg Z1, which I don`t like to much, BUT, the way he use the z1 model is tremendous (he has a vision and music / creative intuition which make him able to create sounds and phrases, most other players wouldent be able to do that way).

I give credit to mister Orford, because he is a pure visionary tipe of player, not mechanic and "modern" / "sample" type like many modern players. You give him any keyboards and he would create something, unbound to any trendy stream!

But I highly disagree with marginalization of "neo prog" term because term is very useful, in many ways. IQ and many bands had in 80-es a structure of 80-es synth pop and pop rock and they also had a few MTV hits like Drive On and Promises and these songs are not in "neo prog" subgenre just for "vintage sounds", but for "complete opproach" to 80-es (synth) pop rock style.

It`s just my opinion!


 


Edited by Neon Eyes - January 17 2013 at 05:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2013 at 05:39
I dont care what label people use, i dont care how the music was made, i only listen too whatever comes out of my speakers, some i like, others not so much. 
My taste in music is very personal, if i dont like a vocal, no matter how great the music, it will never win my heart.  
Programmed drums or "rustic drums" I dont care, if it sound perfect in my ears, its perfect.
Too much musicanship dosent help me either, especialy in harder rock, if i get the smell of "showing off" it turns me off. Typicaly the Steve Vai speed solo, on top of relatively boring backing, sigh.
Prefer Vai having fun with David Lee, or Whiteshake, because he dosent choke the music with his skills.
 
Ehh What was the question Embarrassed
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2013 at 05:40
Perhaps I'm misremembering, but when I got in to prog in 1989 I believe the neo-prog term was in use for Marillion, IQ, etc.  I know it definitely was by the early 90s because I recall bands like Pendragon, Jadis and It Bites being dismissed using this very name.

Or I could have imagined it all!

BTW, I just put on "Harvest of Souls".  I've never noticed a SR similarity before, but I definitely hear it now!  For better or worse I'm not sure.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2013 at 05:56
Martin is pretty disillusioned with the music industry and perhaps that has tainted his view on the label NEO.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2013 at 05:58
When did he write this?  It appears to me have been while he was still in IQ.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2013 at 06:02
We love you Martin.  We'll take you in RPI if you'd like that better.  Wink


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2013 at 06:04
InfoCat, that's probable, but often opinions brew before they come out.

By the way, I had occasion to email him about buying a cd and found him to be a lovely and genuine man.
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