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All of these can mean "virtuoso." They're pretty vague and open to interpretation, yes.
Interesting that none of these definitions necessarily suggest a propensity to show off.
Also, I forgot to address this the previous day:
Guldbamsen wrote:
I would mind having hear a piano fugue in the midst of I Talk to the Wind or a jazz chase done during Cirrus Minor....
I'd suggest that that is poor songwriting/composition rather than virtuosity that needs to be blamed for that. The virtuosos in KC did not ruin I Talk to the Wind that way, after all.
It's interesting that Howe is mentioned when the subject of virtuosity comes up. Certainly he is a master of the acoustic but I find Fripp and Hackett steadier on electric, maybe Latimer as well. Look at Hackett's leads in Dancing on the Moonlit Knight, that's faster than probably anything Howe ever played on electric and yet it never sounds jarring the way Howe's electric playing often does. Makes me wonder again if we simply equate virtuosity with flashiness in rock.
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Posted: February 22 2013 at 21:05
The Dark Elf wrote:
Getting back to wherever it was in the discussion that folks were actually commenting on the role of virtuosity in Progressive music, I think it is a necessity, an uncommon component that separates the genre from baser rock models. That is not to say there isn't virtuosity to be found in 12 bar blues, because I could rattle off many amazingly gifted blues musicians; however, the symphonic and jazz elements in prog require a more disciplined approach and a greater background in musical theory..
Aside from the usual rhetoric one hears, I sometimes think the punk backlash in the mid-70s was propagated by musicians who just couldn't excel in competition with Yes, Crimson, Tull, ELP, Genesis, etc. The whole "getting back to the roots of rock" with a bunch of snarling, 4-chord, safety-pinned cheeked street urchins, leaned heavily on bravado and definitely not on musical ability. Simplistic, I know, but musical virtuosity had actually achieved mainstream success by 1975, yet ever since the ability to really play an instrument has been peripheral to the Billboard Top 100. Prog rock is a niche now, as is jazz and symphony (musical forms which had their heyday in the mythical past).
I would not describe prog as a certain niche market, because it depends on various factors plus one knows it is bound not to make money, as it does not reached the mainstream public, yet in terms of prog band numbers recently there are many and great ones too!!! Unfortunately they still need a day job even so this genre is finally growing plentiful
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Posted: February 22 2013 at 22:36
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Gerinski wrote:
... but talent, inspiration and being able to play with moving emotion are as much (if not more) a part of true virtuosity as being able to play fast is.
Give me an example of that when it comes to instrumental virtuosity.
Phil Collins drumming (in his best period) could be one, he never focused much on speed and yet he played as a virtuoso in my book.
Dynamics control and expression are examples of musical techniques which are of course learnt by the musicians and mastered by hard practice, same as mastering speed, but few people think of them when using the term 'virtuoso'.
The ability of knowing how to shift successfully between keys would be another technical quality which has nothing to do with speed (I do not mean 'shifting among different keyboards').
I'm not a musician myself but I would bet that out of all the stuff they teach in a conservatory, only little concerns learning to play fast.
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Posted: February 22 2013 at 23:42
rogerthat wrote:
It's interesting that Howe is mentioned when the subject of virtuosity comes up. Certainly he is a master of the acoustic but I find Fripp and Hackett steadier on electric, maybe Latimer as well. Look at Hackett's leads in Dancing on the Moonlit Knight, that's faster than probably anything Howe ever played on electric and yet it never sounds jarring the way Howe's electric playing often does. Makes me wonder again if we simply equate virtuosity with flashiness in rock.
Howe's playing is pretty fast on Sound Chaser, Awaken, and Gates of Delirium. Yes, he can be a little sloppier and more jarring than the others you mentioned, but I think that actually adds to his appeal. He's not a perfect guitar player, but "virtuoso" doesn't mean perfect, and I personally think that guitar players who have very perceivable flaws in their playing are more appealing than those whose playing is more pristine (think Howe or Hackett in the early live performances versus, say, Petrucci).
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Posted: February 23 2013 at 00:03
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
It's interesting that Howe is mentioned when the subject of virtuosity comes up. Certainly he is a master of the acoustic but I find Fripp and Hackett steadier on electric, maybe Latimer as well. Look at Hackett's leads in Dancing on the Moonlit Knight, that's faster than probably anything Howe ever played on electric and yet it never sounds jarring the way Howe's electric playing often does. Makes me wonder again if we simply equate virtuosity with flashiness in rock.
Howe's playing is pretty fast on Sound Chaser, Awaken, and Gates of Delirium. Yes, he can be a little sloppier and more jarring than the others you mentioned, but I think that actually adds to his appeal. He's not a perfect guitar player, but "virtuoso" doesn't mean perfect, and I personally think that guitar players who have very perceivable flaws in their playing are more appealing than those whose playing is more pristine (think Howe or Hackett in the early live performances versus, say, Petrucci).
I don't disagree that a somewhat flawed kind of musicianship can also be virtuoso. I was responding to Exithelemming's comment about Howe vis a vis a Verlaine. It seems to me that Howe is taken as representative of virtuoso guitarwork in prog and that need not be the case. How about Dave Bainbridge who has great technique and also plays very emotional solos. And by the way, it is not as if Howe loves to be flashy all the time. In what way is Turn of the Century much inferior to the great aching guitar solos of rock, like Comfortably Numb and all that?
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Posted: February 23 2013 at 05:32
And now, brethren (and occasional sisters), let us look at the PA's "Top Prog Albums" list. The vox populi at its finest, if you believe in such things. CTTE continues to reign at the #1 position; is it just a coincidence that at that time the lineup of Yes had the highest per capita population of superlative virtuosi? I am thinking primarily Bruford, Squire and Wakeman, but Anderson and Howe weren't clueless slouchers either.
And if you scroll the list down a little, you will still see that most of the Top 20 albums are by the bands who relied heavily on the individual and collective virtuosity to express their complex ideas and emotions: KC, Genesis, Tull, Floyd, Mahavishnu Orchestra, the top Italian prog bands.
I am trying to avoid mentioning VdGG here, because of the "fingernail on chalkboard effect" that Mr. Hammill seems to have on me, which is my own problem :)
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Posted: February 23 2013 at 05:48
Kati wrote:
I would not describe prog as a certain niche market,
I couldn't describe "prog" (the way the term is used by the "prog people") as anything other than a loose group of unrelated genres of non-pop music that aren't directly blues-based and couldn't be classified as jazz or classical music in the traditional sense. So, it's kind of a easier to define what "prog" is not than what it actually is.
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Posted: February 23 2013 at 06:39
^^^ Maybe it's the effect of the punk phenomenon that The Dark Elf alluded to, that makes people a bit reluctant to acknowledge a positive impact of virtuosity. Virtuosity need not always imply excess, it can frequently signify excellence. I agree with you, many of the well loved prog albums have virtuosic musicians playing on them and yet it is deemed to be unimportant or even possibly undesirable.
I should add here that we never had anything like punk in our country so virtuosity implies great Hindustani or Carnatic masters so regarding virtuosity in a negative light is pretty alien to my cultural baggage.
Al DiMeola to me is certainly a virtouso, no one can play like him, he was voted the fastest guitarist in the world (this does not mean much to me but felt the need to mention to those who don't know him) but he didn't like to be classified as such. Al is a virtuouso and not commercial like Santana as he refused to conform to the pop culture, once your hear race with the devil on a spanish highway, you'll know what I mean and where I come from too the problem is what I mentioned above, he refuses to conform thus not known to the crossover fans
Glad to hear that you're an Al Di Meola fan! He has always been one of my favourite fusion players, and is a perfect example of a virtuoso who can play unbelievably fast and still keep things musical and interesting. The album Elegant Gypsy, in particular, really seems to capture his talent.
He is in no way the fastest guitarist in the world. Wherever this information was printed ...Guitar Player magazine or any other publication? They are not musicians but journalists and even if they were musicians who became journalists or judges on "American Idol" ..they are beyond questionable. Not that a guitarist playing at impeccable speed should logically give any journalist/music fan/record company a quest for comparison to others. Pat Metheny, George Benson, Pat Martino, John McLaughlin, can easily play at the speed of Al DiMeola. They don't choose to because they design their music differently. There are plenty of guitarists that hail from Mexico and Spain who could play just as fast or even faster ..but with their fingertips instead of a pick. Guitarists from the "Swing era played faster than the speed of light. ...so to speak...because seriously these votes are contrived and when they are not..they usually remain to be totally wrong from every stand point of so called intellectual observation. Whether it's a musician whose getting paid to say something false so that the industry can wave Eric Clapton under everyone's nose or a so called judge who uses fancy college words ...yet when it comes down to music...they know nothing of it and are role playing a host position like a moron who wants money and has no other alternative but to be ignorant about the art in music.
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Posted: February 23 2013 at 07:45
^^^ Certainly, DeLucia had no problems playing at DiMeola's pace in the San Francisco concert. As good as DiMeola is, he is not quite a monster (on electric) like Shawn Lane, imho.
On a similar note, some magazine once voted Geddy Lee the best keyboardist in prog, a result which would have probably embarrassed even him. I mean, that's got to be a joke.
RBlak054 and Kati have every right to their opinion but on the other hand, Comparing DiMeola to Shane or if they...(who work for the publications industry) or whatever they do for a living...maybe they are a plumber or pick up trash for the city have no musicial knowledge to make such analogy. They are out of bounds and have no idea whatsoever what it would be like to devote their life to an instrument. They hear a fast note passage and feel overwhelmed. They come across having knowledge of technical playing and pointing out flaws, speed control...yet they lack the ability to conceive if one fast and long extensive passage of notes might be really easy to play or if another passage of speed demon playing notes could, would? be more complex than Al Dimeola because it's being played by a guitarist who chooses not to play fast that often. That's moronic. That is truly farce. That is sub-moronic. Who do these people think they are? They know nothing.
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Posted: February 23 2013 at 08:09
Hey, can't curb the enthusiasm of people. For that matter, how many would know that U Shrinivas can match step with McLaughlin on mandolin? I can attest to that, having watched both in concert. He's a child prodigy, a celebrated genius here but doesn't have a high profile worldwide where India begins and ends with Ravi Shankar. People are quick to have opinions about everything and perhaps a touch less eager to find out something new.
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Posted: February 23 2013 at 08:12
I don't know if the max. playing speed per se is a good measure of virtuosity and/or comparison criteria. I can hit the "=" button on my calculator 12 times a second; shall I claim the next year Nobel Prize in maths?
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Posted: February 23 2013 at 08:16
Indeed it is not. Might be easier to repeat a note very fast than to play chromatic notes very quickly. Then play it over an odd time sig and it gets even harder.
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Posted: February 23 2013 at 09:14
TODDLER wrote:
RBlak054 wrote:
Kati wrote:
Al DiMeola to me is certainly a virtouso, no one can play like him, he was voted the fastest guitarist in the world (this does not mean much to me but felt the need to mention to those who don't know him) but he didn't like to be classified as such. Al is a virtuouso and not commercial like Santana as he refused to conform to the pop culture, once your hear race with the devil on a spanish highway, you'll know what I mean and where I come from too the problem is what I mentioned above, he refuses to conform thus not known to the crossover fans
Glad to hear that you're an Al Di Meola fan! He has always been one of my favourite fusion players, and is a perfect example of a virtuoso who can play unbelievably fast and still keep things musical and interesting. The album Elegant Gypsy, in particular, really seems to capture his talent.
He is in no way the fastest guitarist in the world. Wherever this information was printed ...Guitar Player magazine or any other publication? They are not musicians but journalists and even if they were musicians who became journalists or judges on "American Idol" ..they are beyond questionable. Not that a guitarist playing at impeccable speed should logically give any journalist/music fan/record company a quest for comparison to others. Pat Metheny, George Benson, Pat Martino, John McLaughlin, can easily play at the speed of Al DiMeola. They don't choose to because they design their music differently. There are plenty of guitarists that hail from Mexico and Spain who could play just as fast or even faster ..but with their fingertips instead of a pick. Guitarists from the "Swing era played faster than the speed of light. ...so to speak...because seriously these votes are contrived and when they are not..they usually remain to be totally wrong from every stand point of so called intellectual observation. Whether it's a musician whose getting paid to say something false so that the industry can wave Eric Clapton under everyone's nose or a so called judge who uses fancy college words ...yet when it comes down to music...they know nothing of it and are role playing a host position like a moron who wants money and has no other alternative but to be ignorant about the art in music.
Kati was claiming that Al Di Meola was voted the fastest guitar player, so perhaps the attacks against music publications are not relevant here (although I too agree that their quality and "expertise" leaves more than a little to be desired).
I don't know if the max. playing speed per se is a good measure of virtuosity and/or comparison criteria. I can hit the "=" button on my calculator 12 times a second; shall I claim the next year Nobel Prize in maths?
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The Role of Virtuosity in Progressive Music
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Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
Unfortunately they still need a day job even so this genre is finally growing plentiful 
the problem is what I mentioned above, he refuses to conform thus not known to the crossover fans 
