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The Role of Virtuosity in Progressive Music

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DiamondDog View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DiamondDog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2013 at 13:15
PS

I also raised the subject of how either kind of musician would cope in a pub, where an instant response was called for, following a singer one had never heard before, often playing a piece one had never heard before, certainly playing it without any prior knowledge of key, perhaps having to change key, tempo, and bar structure, to accommodate an erratic karaoke singer to make the piece work. I would submit that the pub pianist who deals with all these forces instantly and successfully has vastly more talent than the vaunted rock or classical musician we fete so much in these pages.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2013 at 13:18
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by DiamondDog DiamondDog wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

The hunch that many of the guys and ladies we call virtuosos in the rock world are possibly seen as not much more than simply decent musicians by good classically trained musicians (e.g. those playing with respected orchestras, and not limiting to instrumentalists but including also composers) is always lurking in these discussions.

Besides the purely technical instrumentalist skill level, knowledge of theory etc, many classically-oriented people remark that a lot of renowned rock musicians would be lost without the figure of the producer who is the one converting their 'half-baked amateur-level ideas and limited understanding of sound' into music worth listening to. Classical orchestras made of competent musicians do not need a producer to sound good (they may need a sound engineer to adapt to the venue characteristics or to master the recording process but that's not in the same sense, rock bands can really take radically different sounds depending on the producer).

Personally I'm not so harsh and I prefer to see it as comparing apples with oranges, with classical musicians virtuosity focusing more on consistently precise execution, while rock musicians are allowed to showcase talents which classical musicians have often inhibited (that's not saying that improvisation does not exist in classical music, it certainly does for the soloists).

What are your thoughts on the subject?





Those classically trained musicians are probably right about most renowned rock musicians.  They're dead wrong about all the other rock musicians who aren't famous but are actually good at what they do.

I agree with you that it's apples and oranges, but at the same time there are rock guitarists out there who can excel in "academic" (as much as I hate to use that term) styles, too.  Even the guitarists in Avenged Sevenfold (a band whom I loathe) have jazz degrees, for crying out loud.  No classical musician is going to convince me that John Petrucci or Steve Howe or Robert Fripp can't hold their own up against classical/jazz artists.

I'm with the apples and oranges theory. I doubt very much if those classical musicians could cut it in a Rock band context. Much of classical is learning to play a piece methodically from reading the music; it often requires great or very good technique, but any talented rock musician could do the same (assuming he/she could read music, which is, after all, only an information system). The Rock musician, therefore, can transcend the two genres. I'm not so sure that many classical musicians could survive beyond their own comfort zone.
I think you have that back-to-front. Many classical musicians are also members of jazz bands, if they can do jazz they can do rock. I'm not convinced your average rock musican could cut it in an classical orchestra.
 
My view is that there are different types virtousos with many exceptions, comparing them would not be fair. As an example classical trained musicians are trained and wired differently many can't think beyond the rules (or rather ouside the box) they can easily compose and write something knowing how the notes will sound in their head exactly even without  having to play the instrument, some lack the creativity to experiment because in their mind it's against the rules. Meanwhile others not necessary classically trained play what they feel and come up with the most memorable licks, most stunning music. A great example of this is Roine Stolt from TFK he does not know how to read music notes however his music style is credited, copied and taught at the University in Sweden.  


Edited by Kati - March 01 2013 at 13:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2013 at 13:27
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by DiamondDog DiamondDog wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

The hunch that many of the guys and ladies we call virtuosos in the rock world are possibly seen as not much more than simply decent musicians by good classically trained musicians (e.g. those playing with respected orchestras, and not limiting to instrumentalists but including also composers) is always lurking in these discussions.

Besides the purely technical instrumentalist skill level, knowledge of theory etc, many classically-oriented people remark that a lot of renowned rock musicians would be lost without the figure of the producer who is the one converting their 'half-baked amateur-level ideas and limited understanding of sound' into music worth listening to. Classical orchestras made of competent musicians do not need a producer to sound good (they may need a sound engineer to adapt to the venue characteristics or to master the recording process but that's not in the same sense, rock bands can really take radically different sounds depending on the producer).

Personally I'm not so harsh and I prefer to see it as comparing apples with oranges, with classical musicians virtuosity focusing more on consistently precise execution, while rock musicians are allowed to showcase talents which classical musicians have often inhibited (that's not saying that improvisation does not exist in classical music, it certainly does for the soloists).

What are your thoughts on the subject?





Those classically trained musicians are probably right about most renowned rock musicians.  They're dead wrong about all the other rock musicians who aren't famous but are actually good at what they do.

I agree with you that it's apples and oranges, but at the same time there are rock guitarists out there who can excel in "academic" (as much as I hate to use that term) styles, too.  Even the guitarists in Avenged Sevenfold (a band whom I loathe) have jazz degrees, for crying out loud.  No classical musician is going to convince me that John Petrucci or Steve Howe or Robert Fripp can't hold their own up against classical/jazz artists.

I'm with the apples and oranges theory. I doubt very much if those classical musicians could cut it in a Rock band context. Much of classical is learning to play a piece methodically from reading the music; it often requires great or very good technique, but any talented rock musician could do the same (assuming he/she could read music, which is, after all, only an information system). The Rock musician, therefore, can transcend the two genres. I'm not so sure that many classical musicians could survive beyond their own comfort zone.
I think you have that back-to-front. Many classical musicians are also members of jazz bands, if they can do jazz they can do rock. I'm not convinced your average rock musican could cut it in an classical orchestra.
 
My view is that there are different types virtousos with many exceptions, comparing them would not be fair. As an example classical trained musicians are trained and wired differently many can't think beyond the rules (or rather ouside the box) they can easily compose and write something knowing how the notes will sound in their head exactly even without  having to play the instrument, some lack the creativity to experiment because in their mind it's against the rules. Meanwhile others not necessary classically trained play what they feel and come up with the most memorable licks, most stunning music. A great example of this is Roine Stolt from TFK he does not know how to read music notes however his music style is credited, copied and taught at the University in Sweden.  
 
P.S. I must add that The Flower Kings are one of the very few bands that perform 3 hours live, their music is quite complex yet they make it look easy and effortless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote presdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2013 at 16:24
Some here are forgetting something i brought up earlier, the role of a conductor in an orchestral musician's career. An orchestral musician doesn't simply learn a piece and repeat it, and given the conductor at the time, that musician may relearn a work that was mastered on a basic technical level at first, but will learn to play that same work in a totally different light with a different conductor at hand.
      Now, the problem today is that a lot of conductors are not that distinct from each other, the way they were back in the early part of the 20th Century, when you had "the Toscanini sound" and "the Stokowski sound" ,etc, but many recordings are available that show that orchestral musicians are indeed, not robots, and are constantly learning, and not just repeating something technically mastered, there is more to it than that.
"and what music unites, man should not take apart"--Helmut Koellen                               
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2013 at 20:42
I've watched rock, jazz and classical concerts and rock was in my experience by far the least dynamic.  Unless all these bands are just KC-clones....but I've heard heavy metal, extreme metal, hard rock and they simply play the studio album note for note.  There was hardly any variation, let alone improvisation.   At least, as presdoug says, different performances of the same classical composition would convey different nuances depending on the conductor but if you've seen one Iron Maiden concert, you've seen them all.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2013 at 06:19

Originally posted by DiamondDog DiamondDog wrote:

PS

I also raised the subject of how either kind of musician would cope in a pub, where an instant response was called for, following a singer one had never heard before, often playing a piece one had never heard before, certainly playing it without any prior knowledge of key, perhaps having to change key, tempo, and bar structure, to accommodate an erratic karaoke singer to make the piece work. I would submit that the pub pianist who deals with all these forces instantly and successfully has vastly more talent than the vaunted rock or classical musician we fete so much in these pages.

That is a trivial thing for a musician to do so I would not elevate a pub pianist too highly based upon that skill-set anymore than I would pit the lady who plays the organ in our village church every Sunday against Emerson or Wakeman.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neelus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2013 at 02:00
Originally posted by DiamondDog DiamondDog wrote:

Disagree entirely with it being said that if you can play jazz you can play rock. Most jazz musicians are too soft in approach and lacking in many respects. Jazz, though ideal for improvisation of a free nature, seldom contains the dynamic qualities natural to a talented rock musician. Also doubt that many classical musicians are good at even playing jazz, certainly not the majority by any means. As well as that, classical musicians, as I said, have to follow a set piece and repeat it ad infinitum. Any talented person can learn a piece, however difficult it is. I don't believe your average classical musician could live in even a reasonable rock band without a long time learning his new set piece.

Of course, these are generalities. There will always be exceptions, but they are not the norm at all.


This reminds me of a musical experience I had.  I grew up playing rock bands (I play bass).  Some time ago I decided to take the "plunge" and responded to an ad by jazz scholars (it was a jazz teacher, and some final year jazz students) that needed a bassist.  I knew I was in over my head, but decided to do it anyway.  I remember that first rehearsal day very well.  We played Charlie Parker's "Ornithology", "Blue Monk" by Thelonious Monk, some other standards. After that we did a funk rock jam over a bass groove I laid down.  I will tell you one thing.  Before that day I have NEVER experienced musicians with so much feeling for what is happening in a studio as these guys.  They absorb ANY changes done by anyone in that room in an instant, and adapt with it.  That drummer was onto anything I was playing.  It was the most educative experience I have ever had in music.  And these guys could play funk rock like you wont believe.  No problems whatsoever.  I am not saying that rock musos dont feel what others are doing, but I have never experienced people responding to mood like scholared jazz folks.
If you have played rock bands your entire life, I suggest you give this a try.  Get out of your comfort zone and go try some jazz with some guys that know what they are doing.  You cannot understand what it is by looking at a video or listening to a track on radio.  You have to experience this first hand.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2013 at 02:21
^^^  I have watched Igor Butman, the Russian saxophonist, in concert and he got to octaves that Ella Fitzgerald probably couldn't have reached.  It was an incredible experience, a thorough demonstration of the possibilities of the instrument in just an hour and a half or so.  Great jazz musicians don't HAVE a comfort zone.

EDIT: And by the way, I am no jazz/classical elitist.  But if I listen to more rock than either of these, it is for reasons other than relative virtuosity or technical prowess, not because of. 


Edited by rogerthat - March 03 2013 at 02:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2013 at 01:44
Whooohaaaaaa ooohhhhhhh aahhhhh just in case of any doubts do listen to this and it's live too! Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sukmytoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2013 at 02:12
I can get that there's little like a smoky, good, live jazz session to sit back and just absorb while being there however then I want to be there to get the full experience - kind of like being inside of an old detective noir movie story - the experience would be profound. Jazz is an animal that I personally don't chase down as I'm not a fan but I do personally believe that it has profound value as a music form as I percieve classical music (which I also don't chase down) to have profound value. Having said that - although I'm not a fan of classical music I will happily put a Saint Saens work on my player and happily close my eyes and absorb the music - as I would many classics.
 
Relating to virtuosity - the music that I do chase down - most of the progressive rock / metal genre music - kind of demands way more skill to play than does the regular pop music out there. A musician has to be able to do more with his instrument than just play it for me to like it over much. I love that my preferred music demands a greater instrument technical ability than the airhead music that is popular with the masses. Those "Wow!" moments within prog music when I hear an instrument being played by someone who really knows what he is doing are part of what I love about the music that I love - also those moments when a band kind of segues together as a well oiled engine.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2013 at 11:59
Didn't see this thread before but then someone posted a new response and it was resurrected so to speak.
I tend to agree with the original post in that technical ability/virtuosity often goes hand in hand with prog rock....at least in most of the bands that I enjoy. But as Holy Moly pointed out creativity in songwriting  is also needed to allow the music to come to fruition. All of the successful past classic prog  rock giants seem to have several 'virtuosos' in their midst and often all of the players are superb.
 
Just curious but can someone point out a really good known prog band that doesn;t have talented palyers on a virtuosic level..? And what's the defining point between virtuosity and just a good musician..?
Confused
 
 


Edited by dr wu23 - April 06 2013 at 12:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2013 at 12:04
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Just curious but can someone point out a really good known prog band that doesn;t have talented palyers on a virtuosic level?
Confused

Pink Floyd.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - April 06 2013 at 12:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2013 at 12:16
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

 
 
Just curious but can someone point out a really good known prog band that doesn;t have talented palyers on a virtuosic level..?


Good question, and as I try to recall, I find at least one arguably virtuosic musician in well known prog rock bands, if by that is meant the first tier.  I think I had mentioned earlier in the thread too that somebody playing stuff like prog rock for a very long time in good bands must likely be a master of his instrument and people tend to underestimate the skills of musicians whose work doesn't appeal to their personal tastes. 

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:



And what's the defining point between virtuosity and just a good musician..?
Confused
 
 


My view is that a good musician is one who plays the notes he's asked to correctly and has an above average level of artistic sense.   While a virtuoso has huge command over his chosen instrument to the point where he can re-imagine its possibilities.  Think Bill Bruford or take Petrucci's blistering alternate picked runs (I think!) in a power ballad like Spirit Carries On.   One tends to think that playing a very fast solo on a ballad can be off putting and imagines Hackett/Gilmour-like golden notes re-iterated over and over for effect.  But Petrucci plays so fast and yet with so much melody that it fits.  Some people may still find the very idea of metal guitar shredding on a ballad akin to pulling teeth but, objectively, I appreciate the fluency of his execution. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silverpot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2013 at 17:45
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Just curious but can someone point out a really good known prog band that doesn;t have talented palyers on a virtuosic level?
Confused

Pink Floyd.

Interesting question. To some extent I agree that the Floyds arenīt the most technically proficiant players, but when it comes to pure musicality, I think Gilmour and Wright are absolutely top notch.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2013 at 18:03
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Just curious but can someone point out a really good known prog band that doesn;t have talented palyers on a virtuosic level?
Confused

Pink Floyd.
 
Because "virtuosity" is over rated ... and has always been, and in fact, I would take Ian Anderson any day over Jean Pierre Rampal, on ANY .... ANY .... ANY ... kind of musical material including the ugliest jazz you ever met ... !!!!!
  
Not sure I would pick an Eddie Jobson or Darryl Way or Grahame Smith, or Jean Luc Ponti, or Charlie Daniels or Doug Kershaw over an Isaac Stern or Yehudi Menuhin, but I can tell you that those folks are as good, if not better, than those two ... and they have the versatility that Stern and Menuhin might not have learned in time. But I don't think that Stern or Menuhin, would have done too well on a Symphony for Violin by Francis Monkman ... either ... which Darryl Way did get! It was not a classical materpiece, but it was very good and virtuosity is not the issue here at all!
 
Funny bit here that is very similar ... at UCSB, us theater folks hated the English department folks why? ... they came to see a Shakespeare play and tell us how many times we didn't use the Iambic Pentameter ... and we always said that they would rather have a steel dan than the real thing! Words in other words. But to them it was about the poetry, not the play, the emotion or the work itself! There is no "theater" in their view of the plays! There is no language in the plays for us that is meaningful without it ... but the iambic bs is a total turn off!


Edited by moshkito - April 06 2013 at 18:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tapfret Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2013 at 22:39
^ "overrated" is a sure non-starter to any conversation on the matter. If anything virtuosity is sneered at and disregarded in an arrogant backlash of fundamental attribution error. "I don't feel it, therefore it has no feeling". Hogwash.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2013 at 22:56
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Just curious but can someone point out a really good known prog band that doesn;t have talented palyers on a virtuosic level?
Confused

Pink Floyd.
 
Known prog band, but really good.....?    Wink
 Well...there's at least one then.....and I might argue that Gilmore has become a superb guitarist and could qualify as a virtuoso to some.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2013 at 23:12
Not only Gilmour but Mason is a fantastic drummer.   When musicians play within themselves and play for the song instead of to show off their skills, listeners tend to write off their skills (I did w.r.t Mason too, so I am not just preaching) and when musicians show off, they say it lacks feeling.  I think rating a musician's skills should have nought to do with personal likes and dislikes but an objective appreciation of what it is that he does with the instrument.  If you cannot separate it that way from tastes, then don't try to rate them because it's not important any way.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smartpatrol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2013 at 23:30
Not essential, but certainly helps, and is common in prog
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DiamondDog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2013 at 13:03
What snooty and elitist nonsense is peddled in these pages by those who should know better; so much of so-called jazz or pseudo-jazz is mere doodling; jamming is often complete rubbish, except to the musicians themselves, who think it's great because they have a whale of a time and sod the song. How true that musicians who give themselves to the song rather than to ego are doing a great job. 
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