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Topic ClosedThe Role of Virtuosity in Progressive Music

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progbethyname View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2013 at 12:41
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ Just go through a few last pages and you will find some interesting ideas from rogerthat and Tapfret regarding what virtuosity is.


Agreed, although Gerinski makes some great points as well. :)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2013 at 11:20
^ Just go through a few last pages and you will find some interesting ideas from rogerthat and Tapfret regarding what virtuosity is.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2013 at 03:17
As many have said, if virtuosity simply means "look how fast I can play", then it has no place in any music.
 
If virtuosity is about having a technical command of your instrument, so you can use it to capture the feel of the music and interpret it then yes, it is very important.
 
Technique must always be subverted to advance the music, not become the end in itself.
 
To take a possibly controversial example: for me, I prefer Tony Banks to Keith Emerson, because I feel his playing complements the music better. Keith probably has the better technqiue, but sometimes (not always) sounds like he is simply showing off the technique rather than trying to play musically.
 
I haven't read his book, but it seems to me that even the title of the book, "Pictures of an Exhibitionist" confirms that.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2013 at 22:29
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:



Bob Fripp could smoke any of 'em.   I've known Fripp since the 1980s, have played in a band with one of his first Guitar Craft students, and played guitar for about 45 years myself.  
The scalar riffing of DiMeola is very impressive, but not nearly as much as Fripp's remarkable cross-picking technique.  Fripp also has ungodly long and strong fingers, his reach is unreal.   And we can't forget, McLaughlin is the guv who launched this whole thing! 
I LOVE DiMeola, mind you, and he has done many remarkable things in fusion, world music etc.  Al DiMeola and many other modern guitar phenoms come out of either Berklee School of Music or the Guitar Institute of Technology, and the craft of playing guitar is much more refined than in the early 1970's.  The instructors have taken the innovations of McLaughlin, Martino and others and honed them into amazing curriculum. 
John Petrucci is probably the most technically perfect guitarist to take a stage in this decade, but I find his music to be very cold.   Frank Gambale just amazes with his sweep-picking technique (he has taught at the GIT), but I know even better players.   It is just amazing how many gunslingers are out there!  Fortunately, the hair-band shredders of the 1980's have pretty much gone away. 
Look around for the hidden gems out there, a lot of amazing guitar players are toiling away in the orchestra pits of the big city shows (Thjis Van Leer was in a pit in Amsterdam when he founded Focus, playing keys for " Hair").   I can think of half a dozen in Chicago who would rival any of the "big name" guitarists we are talking about.  




I like what you say here. Very interesting. Hate to be a buzz kill though and have to mention DRAGONFORCE in this thread, but they gotta really quick guitar player in HERMAN LI. That guy is the fastest I've ever heard. It's Malmsteen on speed.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2013 at 22:17
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:


Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

... but talent, inspiration and being able to play with moving emotion are as much (if not more) a part of true virtuosity as being able to play fast is.
Give me an example of that when it comes to instrumental virtuosity.
Phil Collins drumming (in his best period) could be one, he never focused much on speed and yet he played as a virtuoso in my book.
Dynamics control and expression are examples of musical techniques which are of course learnt by the musicians and mastered by hard practice, same as mastering speed, but few people think of them when using  the term 'virtuoso'.
The ability of knowing how to shift successfully between keys would be another technical quality which has nothing to do with speed (I do not mean 'shifting among different keyboards').
I'm not a musician myself but I would bet that out of all the stuff they teach in a conservatory, only little concerns learning to play fast.


Gerinski. You are right again. Im in full agreement on the Phil Collins point. Sheeesh!? I wonder if you have your own magic quote book or something. Lol I've been reading this thread from page one and you seem to agree with me the most. Very entertaining man. Keep up the good work. I'd say your a virtuoso right now.


Oh wait. Phill Collins did play with some blinding speed on CINEMA SHOW. Wow. Here it live on the seconds out concert. :)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2013 at 22:15
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:


Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

... but talent, inspiration and being able to play with moving emotion are as much (if not more) a part of true virtuosity as being able to play fast is.
Give me an example of that when it comes to instrumental virtuosity.
Phil Collins drumming (in his best period) could be one, he never focused much on speed and yet he played as a virtuoso in my book.
Dynamics control and expression are examples of musical techniques which are of course learnt by the musicians and mastered by hard practice, same as mastering speed, but few people think of them when using  the term 'virtuoso'.
The ability of knowing how to shift successfully between keys would be another technical quality which has nothing to do with speed (I do not mean 'shifting among different keyboards').
I'm not a musician myself but I would bet that out of all the stuff they teach in a conservatory, only little concerns learning to play fast.


Gerinski. You are right again. Im in full agreement on the Phil Collins point. Sheeesh!? I wonder if you have your own magic quote book or something. Lol I've been reading this thread from page one and you seem to agree with me the most. Very entertaining man. Keep up the good work. I'd say your a virtuoso right now.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2013 at 21:54
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:


<t></t><span ="dnindex"=""></span><span id="hotword"><span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">"A</span> <span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">person</span> <span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">who</span> <span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">excels</span> <span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">in</span> <span id="hotword" name="hotword">musical</span> <span id="hotword" name="hotword">technique</span> <span id="hotword" name="hotword">or</span> <span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">execution."</span> </span><span id="hotword"><span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">"A </span><span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">consummate</span> <span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">master</span> <span id="hotword" name="hotword">of</span> <span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">musical</span> <span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">technique</span> <span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">and</span> <span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">artistry</span>"</span><span id="hotword"><span id="hotword"><span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">"A</span> <span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">person</span> <span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">who</span> <span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">has</span> <span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">a</span> <span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">masterly</span> <span id="hotword" name="hotword">or</span> <span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">dazzling</span> <span id="hotword" name="hotword">skill</span> <span id="hotword" name="hotword">or</span> <span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">technique</span> <span id="hotword" name="hotword">in</span> <span id="hotword" name="hotword">any</span> <span id="hotword" name="hotword">field</span> <span id="hotword" name="hotword">of</span> <span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">activity"All of these can mean "virtuoso."  They're pretty vague and open to interpretation, yes.  </span> </span></span>




Hey!! It's John Petrucci!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2013 at 21:36
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ What would an artist need virtuosity for?


To be DREAM THEATER!!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2013 at 19:56
Originally posted by pitfall pitfall wrote:




Could you please give me some examples of these frequent occasions when Howe's electric playing sounds jarring? I've never come across it myself.
I find it difficult to accept that you have ever really listened to his playing!


Eh, any number of his faster leads with Yes but CTTE if you want one example.  Please read what I said with context - though I didn't specify it, I was comparing his approach with Hackett. Yes, compared to Hackett, I do find Howe's electric playing pretty jarring, the more so as he gets faster while Hackett is very smooth and makes me oblivious to how fast he might be playing. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2013 at 17:36
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:



"A person who excels in musical technique or execution."

"A consummate master of musical technique and artistry"

"A person who has a masterly or dazzling skill or technique in any field of activity"


All of these can mean "virtuoso."  They're pretty vague and open to interpretation, yes.  




Interesting that none of these definitions necessarily suggest a propensity to show off.  

Also, I forgot to address this the previous day:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

 I would mind having hear a piano fugue in the midst of I Talk to the Wind or a jazz chase done during Cirrus Minor....

I'd suggest that that is poor songwriting/composition rather than virtuosity that needs to be blamed for that.   The virtuosos in KC did not ruin I Talk to the Wind that way, after all.  Big smile

It's interesting that Howe is mentioned when the subject of virtuosity comes up.   Certainly he is a master of the acoustic but I find Fripp and Hackett steadier on electric, maybe Latimer as well.   Look at Hackett's leads in Dancing on the Moonlit Knight, that's faster than probably anything Howe ever played on electric and yet it never sounds jarring the way Howe's electric playing often does.   Makes me wonder again if we simply equate virtuosity with flashiness in rock. 






Could you please give me some examples of these frequent occasions when Howe's electric playing sounds jarring? I've never come across it myself.
I find it difficult to accept that you have ever really listened to his playing!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2013 at 17:11
Originally posted by Sumdeus Sumdeus wrote:

virtuosity is not necessary for good music and neither is theory like someone else said above^. music is in your head and that's that . They can help make it easier for you to play what you hear in your head but at the end of the day you either got it or you don't. As well, they can also make it harder to play good music, with virtuosity leading to flashy self-indulgent playing and too much worry over theory can lead to very safe boring compositions that have nothing exciting going on.


Frank Zappa is a good example of someone who had a brilliant technique and a good understanding of music theory and application - I wouldn't describe his music as safe and boring, with nothing exiting going on - would you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2013 at 13:03
What snooty and elitist nonsense is peddled in these pages by those who should know better; so much of so-called jazz or pseudo-jazz is mere doodling; jamming is often complete rubbish, except to the musicians themselves, who think it's great because they have a whale of a time and sod the song. How true that musicians who give themselves to the song rather than to ego are doing a great job. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2013 at 23:30
Not essential, but certainly helps, and is common in prog
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2013 at 23:12
Not only Gilmour but Mason is a fantastic drummer.   When musicians play within themselves and play for the song instead of to show off their skills, listeners tend to write off their skills (I did w.r.t Mason too, so I am not just preaching) and when musicians show off, they say it lacks feeling.  I think rating a musician's skills should have nought to do with personal likes and dislikes but an objective appreciation of what it is that he does with the instrument.  If you cannot separate it that way from tastes, then don't try to rate them because it's not important any way.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2013 at 22:56
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Just curious but can someone point out a really good known prog band that doesn;t have talented palyers on a virtuosic level?
Confused

Pink Floyd.
 
Known prog band, but really good.....?    Wink
 Well...there's at least one then.....and I might argue that Gilmore has become a superb guitarist and could qualify as a virtuoso to some.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2013 at 22:39
^ "overrated" is a sure non-starter to any conversation on the matter. If anything virtuosity is sneered at and disregarded in an arrogant backlash of fundamental attribution error. "I don't feel it, therefore it has no feeling". Hogwash.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2013 at 18:03
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Just curious but can someone point out a really good known prog band that doesn;t have talented palyers on a virtuosic level?
Confused

Pink Floyd.
 
Because "virtuosity" is over rated ... and has always been, and in fact, I would take Ian Anderson any day over Jean Pierre Rampal, on ANY .... ANY .... ANY ... kind of musical material including the ugliest jazz you ever met ... !!!!!
  
Not sure I would pick an Eddie Jobson or Darryl Way or Grahame Smith, or Jean Luc Ponti, or Charlie Daniels or Doug Kershaw over an Isaac Stern or Yehudi Menuhin, but I can tell you that those folks are as good, if not better, than those two ... and they have the versatility that Stern and Menuhin might not have learned in time. But I don't think that Stern or Menuhin, would have done too well on a Symphony for Violin by Francis Monkman ... either ... which Darryl Way did get! It was not a classical materpiece, but it was very good and virtuosity is not the issue here at all!
 
Funny bit here that is very similar ... at UCSB, us theater folks hated the English department folks why? ... they came to see a Shakespeare play and tell us how many times we didn't use the Iambic Pentameter ... and we always said that they would rather have a steel dan than the real thing! Words in other words. But to them it was about the poetry, not the play, the emotion or the work itself! There is no "theater" in their view of the plays! There is no language in the plays for us that is meaningful without it ... but the iambic bs is a total turn off!


Edited by moshkito - April 06 2013 at 18:06
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2013 at 17:45
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Just curious but can someone point out a really good known prog band that doesn;t have talented palyers on a virtuosic level?
Confused

Pink Floyd.

Interesting question. To some extent I agree that the Floyds aren´t the most technically proficiant players, but when it comes to pure musicality, I think Gilmour and Wright are absolutely top notch.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2013 at 12:16
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

 
 
Just curious but can someone point out a really good known prog band that doesn;t have talented palyers on a virtuosic level..?


Good question, and as I try to recall, I find at least one arguably virtuosic musician in well known prog rock bands, if by that is meant the first tier.  I think I had mentioned earlier in the thread too that somebody playing stuff like prog rock for a very long time in good bands must likely be a master of his instrument and people tend to underestimate the skills of musicians whose work doesn't appeal to their personal tastes. 

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:



And what's the defining point between virtuosity and just a good musician..?
Confused
 
 


My view is that a good musician is one who plays the notes he's asked to correctly and has an above average level of artistic sense.   While a virtuoso has huge command over his chosen instrument to the point where he can re-imagine its possibilities.  Think Bill Bruford or take Petrucci's blistering alternate picked runs (I think!) in a power ballad like Spirit Carries On.   One tends to think that playing a very fast solo on a ballad can be off putting and imagines Hackett/Gilmour-like golden notes re-iterated over and over for effect.  But Petrucci plays so fast and yet with so much melody that it fits.  Some people may still find the very idea of metal guitar shredding on a ballad akin to pulling teeth but, objectively, I appreciate the fluency of his execution. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2013 at 12:04
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Just curious but can someone point out a really good known prog band that doesn;t have talented palyers on a virtuosic level?
Confused

Pink Floyd.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - April 06 2013 at 12:05
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