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Dayvenkirq View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 10:54
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Getting back to wherever it was in the discussion that folks were actually commenting on the role of virtuosity in Progressive music, ... 
The discussion we were having was actually very crucial to helping the forum members understand and get clarification on a number of things, so that they could look at the topic of this thread with a different (if at all) perspective. For instance, I was reminded that the role of virtuosity in progressive music (I presume RBlak means prog rock, not just progressive music (as it says in the title), but I may be wrong) really depends on what is important to the listener or to the artist, not just a group of listeners as a whole. We can't make a general statement about the listeners.

As for the discussion that is going on between Gerinski, TODDLER, rogerthat, and others, ... I'm not quite sure if it falls under "relevant" as I haven't read it in its entirety.

That said, I think I'm gonna stand by what I believe in as an individual: that art and entertainment are mutually exclusive and were never perceived by me while acting as a whole single unit at any single timeframe, and that technical proficiency is only important to me in entertainment (think prog rock, and that's where I'm hitting the nail of relevance here), but never important to me in art. However, I was given the opportunity to infer by myself, on my own terms, that virtuosity and technical proficiency are two different animals, which means that virtuosity may have a place in art for me, be that in prog or not.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - February 23 2013 at 10:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 11:03
Originally posted by Argonaught Argonaught wrote:

I don't know if the max. playing speed per se is a good measure of virtuosity and/or comparison criteria. I can hit the "=" button on my calculator 12 times a second; shall I claim the next year Nobel Prize in maths?
Look, I attended MUS121 (music appreciation class) in community college, and we were told that "[a] virtuoso [is a] master of his own instrument", ... and that does not necessarily imply speed, but just the knowledge of a number of aspects of the instrument or the ways in which the instrument can be used.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - February 23 2013 at 11:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 13:13
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by RBlak054 RBlak054 wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Al DiMeola to me is certainly a virtouso, no one can play like him, he was voted the fastest guitarist in the world (this does not mean much to me but felt the need to mention to those who don't know him) but he didn't like to be classified as such. Al is a virtuouso and not commercial like Santana as he refused to conform to the pop culture, once your hear race with the devil on a spanish highway, you'll know what I mean and where I come from too Thumbs UpApprove the problem is what I mentioned above, he refuses to conform thus not known to the crossover fans Disapprove


Glad to hear that you're an Al Di Meola fan! He has always been one of my favourite fusion players, and is a perfect example of a virtuoso who can play unbelievably fast and still keep things musical and interesting. The album Elegant Gypsy, in particular, really seems to capture his talent.
 
He is in no way the fastest guitarist in the world. Wherever this information was printed ...Guitar Player magazine or any other publication? They are not musicians but journalists and even if they were musicians who became journalists or judges on "American Idol" ..they are beyond questionable. Not that a guitarist playing at impeccable speed should logically give any journalist/music fan/record company a quest for comparison to others. Pat Metheny, George Benson, Pat Martino, John McLaughlin, can easily play at the speed of Al DiMeola. They don't choose to because they design their music differently. There are plenty of guitarists that hail from Mexico and Spain who could play just as fast or even faster ..but with their fingertips instead of a pick. Guitarists from the "Swing era played faster than the speed of light. ...so to speak...because seriously these votes are contrived and when they are not..they usually remain to be  totally wrong from every stand point of so called intellectual observation. Whether it's a musician whose getting paid to say something false so that the industry can wave Eric Clapton under everyone's nose or a so called judge who uses fancy college words ...yet when it comes down to music...they know nothing of it and are role playing a host position like a moron who wants money and has no other alternative but to be ignorant about the art in music.
 

Toodler,

I will rephrase it, Al Di Meola is arguably the fastest TECHNICAL Guitar Player. Di Meola is known for his technical mastery and extremely fast, complex guitar solos and compositions. Al's technical ability and complex compositions on both electric and acoustic guitar are undeniable.

Your question and I quote “He is in no way the fastest guitarist in the world. Wherever this information was printed ...Guitar Player magazine or any other publication?”   

My answer: In the 70's DiMeola held the Guinness World Record for Fastest Guitarist. Besides the above fact you can google search fastest guitarist and AL’s name will often appear on various music related sites including Guitar Player Magazine which has placed Al DiMeola in the Magazine’s Hall of Fame of The Greats and has brought him four straight wins as Best Jazz Guitarist in the Guitar Player Readers Poll, as well as three awards for the Best Guitar Albums.

The fastest guitar player is often disputed and currently two of the fastest players are Tiago Della Vega and Randall Padilla however DiMeola has more technical skills. 

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 13:35
Originally posted by Argonaught Argonaught wrote:

I don't know if the max. playing speed per se is a good measure of virtuosity and/or comparison criteria. I can hit the "=" button on my calculator 12 times a second; shall I claim the next year Nobel Prize in maths?
 
hahaha!! Argonaught LOL Yes true playing fast and being a virtouso are two different things. I gave an example of Al DiMeola because he held the Guinness World Record for being the fastest but doesn't want to be known as the fastest guitarist either because he much prefers to be known for his technical mastery, complex guitar solos and musical compositions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 14:45
Al DiMeola? Ha ha. Fast yes he is. BUT.. he never liked that kind of fan worship of speed. My fave Meola was the early days. Accoustic and electric. One thing he did that nobody else did back then was play all the notes. No tricks, no blurring. Incredible melodic content to my ears and also playing faster than it sounded like he was. He was how a fast guitarist should be in my opinion.
Race with the Devil on Spanish highway remains one of my 2 fave "rock" tracks of all time. The other is Hocus Pocus. Neither of them are proper rock but they are truly original and leave me with my mouth gaping. They still do.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 15:07

I have just realized what my problem with Guthrie Govan and the Aristocrats is: they play way too fast for the amount of musical contents they deliver while doing that





Edited by Argonaught - February 23 2013 at 16:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 16:19
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by RBlak054 RBlak054 wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Al DiMeola to me is certainly a virtouso, no one can play like him, he was voted the fastest guitarist in the world (this does not mean much to me but felt the need to mention to those who don't know him) but he didn't like to be classified as such. Al is a virtuouso and not commercial like Santana as he refused to conform to the pop culture, once your hear race with the devil on a spanish highway, you'll know what I mean and where I come from too Thumbs UpApprove the problem is what I mentioned above, he refuses to conform thus not known to the crossover fans Disapprove


Glad to hear that you're an Al Di Meola fan! He has always been one of my favourite fusion players, and is a perfect example of a virtuoso who can play unbelievably fast and still keep things musical and interesting. The album Elegant Gypsy, in particular, really seems to capture his talent.
 
He is in no way the fastest guitarist in the world. Wherever this information was printed ...Guitar Player magazine or any other publication? They are not musicians but journalists and even if they were musicians who became journalists or judges on "American Idol" ..they are beyond questionable. Not that a guitarist playing at impeccable speed should logically give any journalist/music fan/record company a quest for comparison to others. Pat Metheny, George Benson, Pat Martino, John McLaughlin, can easily play at the speed of Al DiMeola. They don't choose to because they design their music differently. There are plenty of guitarists that hail from Mexico and Spain who could play just as fast or even faster ..but with their fingertips instead of a pick. Guitarists from the "Swing era played faster than the speed of light. ...so to speak...because seriously these votes are contrived and when they are not..they usually remain to be  totally wrong from every stand point of so called intellectual observation. Whether it's a musician whose getting paid to say something false so that the industry can wave Eric Clapton under everyone's nose or a so called judge who uses fancy college words ...yet when it comes down to music...they know nothing of it and are role playing a host position like a moron who wants money and has no other alternative but to be ignorant about the art in music.
 

Toodler,

I will rephrase it, Al Di Meola is arguably the fastest TECHNICAL Guitar Player. Di Meola is known for his technical mastery and extremely fast, complex guitar solos and compositions. Al's technical ability and complex compositions on both electric and acoustic guitar are undeniable.

Your question and I quote “He is in no way the fastest guitarist in the world. Wherever this information was printed ...Guitar Player magazine or any other publication?”   

My answer: In the 70's DiMeola held the Guinness World Record for Fastest Guitarist. Besides the above fact you can google search fastest guitarist and AL’s name will often appear on various music related sites including Guitar Player Magazine which has placed Al DiMeola in the Magazine’s Hall of Fame of The Greats and has brought him four straight wins as Best Jazz Guitarist in the Guitar Player Readers Poll, as well as three awards for the Best Guitar Albums.

The fastest guitar player is often disputed and currently two of the fastest players are Tiago Della Vega and Randall Padilla however DiMeola has more technical skills. 

 

 

 
I can understand this being true in the 70's when he first hit the Jazz/ fusion scene as a solo artist. But..honestly? There are many guitarists from the 30's and 40's who played just as fast and more technical. That's all I'm saying really. There were jazz guitarists in the 50's, 60's and 70's also that ...if they desired they could play as fast as Al DiMeola. There were other masters who....if put on the spot...could give him a run for speed and definitely keep up with his gymnastics and even be more technical....but you have to research it or take up guitar and play every fast Jazz solo from every master dating back to the 30's and on. I mean...I don't trust those polls based on these facts. If you play this kind of music on an instrument, you would surely understand why I disagree with his rating over others of the Jazz world. I do agree that he could have very well been the fastest during a specific period of the 70's..but not compared to players from other decades before him....or actually some 70's Jazz guitarists who disliked playing fast ...but very well could...may have given him a spin during a jam session. They were never in the spotlight like he was and so music fans of the world don't even consider them as a comparison.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 16:39
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by RBlak054 RBlak054 wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Al DiMeola to me is certainly a virtouso, no one can play like him, he was voted the fastest guitarist in the world (this does not mean much to me but felt the need to mention to those who don't know him) but he didn't like to be classified as such. Al is a virtuouso and not commercial like Santana as he refused to conform to the pop culture, once your hear race with the devil on a spanish highway, you'll know what I mean and where I come from too Thumbs UpApprove the problem is what I mentioned above, he refuses to conform thus not known to the crossover fans Disapprove


Glad to hear that you're an Al Di Meola fan! He has always been one of my favourite fusion players, and is a perfect example of a virtuoso who can play unbelievably fast and still keep things musical and interesting. The album Elegant Gypsy, in particular, really seems to capture his talent.
He is in no way the fastest guitarist in the world. Wherever this information was printed ...Guitar Player magazine or any other publication? They are not musicians but journalists and even if they were musicians who became journalists or judges on "American Idol" ..they are beyond questionable. Not that a guitarist playing at impeccable speed should logically give any journalist/music fan/record company a quest for comparison to others. Pat Metheny, George Benson, Pat Martino, John McLaughlin, can easily play at the speed of Al DiMeola. They don't choose to because they design their music differently. There are plenty of guitarists that hail from Mexico and Spain who could play just as fast or even faster ..but with their fingertips instead of a pick. Guitarists from the "Swing era played faster than the speed of light. ...so to speak...because seriously these votes are contrived and when they are not..they usually remain to be totally wrong from every stand point of so called intellectual observation. Whether it's a musician whose getting paid to say something false so that the industry can wave Eric Clapton under everyone's nose or a so called judge who uses fancy college words ...yet when it comes down to music...they know nothing of it and are role playing a host position like a moron who wants money and has no other alternative but to be ignorant about the art in music.

Toodler,

I will rephrase it, Al Di Meola is arguably the fastest TECHNICAL Guitar Player. Di Meola is known for his technical mastery and extremely fast, complex guitar solos and compositions. Al's technical ability and complex compositions on both electric and acoustic guitar are undeniable.

Your question and I quote “He is in no way the fastest guitarist in the world. Wherever this information was printed ...Guitar Player magazine or any other publication?”

My answer: In the 70's DiMeola held the Guinness World Record for Fastest Guitarist. Besides the above fact you can google search fastest guitarist and AL’s name will often appear on various music related sites including Guitar Player Magazine which has placed Al DiMeola in the Magazine’s Hall of Fame of The Greats and has brought him four straight wins as Best Jazz Guitarist in the Guitar Player Readers Poll, as well as three awards for the Best Guitar Albums.

The fastest guitar player is often disputed and currently two of the fastest players are Tiago Della Vega and Randall Padilla however DiMeola has more technical skills.

 

I can understand this being true in the 70's when he first hit the Jazz/ fusion scene as a solo artist. But..honestly? There are many guitarists from the 30's and 40's who played just as fast and more technical. That's all I'm saying really. There were jazz guitarists in the 50's, 60's and 70's also that ...if they desired they could play as fast as Al DiMeola. There were other masters who....if put on the spot...could give him a run for speed and definitely keep up with his gymnastics and even be more technical....but you have to research it or take up guitar and play every fast Jazz solo from every master dating back to the 30's and on. I mean...I don't trust those polls based on these facts. If you play this kind of music on an instrument, you would surely understand why I disagree with his rating over others of the Jazz world. I do agree that he could have very well been the fastest during a specific period of the 70's..but not compared to players from other decades before him....or actually some 70's Jazz guitarists who disliked playing fast ...but very well could...may have given him a spin during a jam session. They were never in the spotlight like he was and so music fans of the world don't even consider them as a comparison.
 
Obviously when it comes to Al DiMeola we will both have to agree to disagree.
 


Edited by Kati - February 23 2013 at 16:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 23:48
Holdsworth can play that fast too, and in legato with incredible chord changes. 





DiMeola relies on what, tremolo picking, over a repetitive pattern?    There are plenty of virtuosos I'd much rather listen to, someone like Larry Carlton plays the most interesting leads without ever relying on speed.  Just listen to the chord changes on Kid Charlemagne.  It's probably fair to say DiMeola paved the way for the annoying showboats of the 80s, who rendered the guitar God permanently boring for he has in common with them an obsession with speed. 


Edited by rogerthat - February 23 2013 at 23:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 00:04
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:



Holdsworth can play that fast too, and in legato with incredible chord changes. 





DiMeola relies on what, tremolo picking, over a repetitive pattern?    There are plenty of virtuosos I'd much rather listen to, someone like Larry Carlton plays the most interesting leads without ever relying on speed.  Just listen to the chord changes on Kid Charlemagne.  It's probably fair to say DiMeola paved the way for the annoying showboats of the 80s, who rendered the guitar God permanently boring for he has in common with them an obsession with speed. 
 
Brill vid you posted RogerthatSmile however I should put you across my lap and smack you on your bottom coz Al is brillll too Big smile this is for you WinkHughttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcsVOQ82wLA
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 00:12
Not especially swayed by that, because it's what I expected to hear....the same old tricks.   Don't have anything more to add to this discussion.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 00:36
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Not especially swayed by that, because it's what I expected to hear....the same old tricks.   Don't have anything more to add to this discussion.  
 
grrrrr DiMeola plays no tricks, all is real. Here is my favorite https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4K7lFFZII
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 00:42
I never said it's fake, by tricks, I mean it's the same approach.   The same as on the Elegant Gypsy album.   That is disappointing, to me.   And I have watched McLaughlin play that way live so I know it's not all that unique either.   But if he's your favourite, so be it.  My lips are sealed on this.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 00:50
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I never said it's fake, by tricks, I mean it's the same approach.   The same as on the Elegant Gypsy album.   That is disappointing, to me.   And I have watched McLaughlin play that way live so I know it's not all that unique either.   But if he's your favourite, so be it.  My lips are sealed on this.  
 
Rogerthat, I am fine with others having a difference of opinion really WinkHug
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 00:57
Bob Fripp could smoke any of 'em.   I've known Fripp since the 1980s, have played in a band with one of his first Guitar Craft students, and played guitar for about 45 years myself.  

The scalar riffing of DiMeola is very impressive, but not nearly as much as Fripp's remarkable cross-picking technique.  Fripp also has ungodly long and strong fingers, his reach is unreal.   And we can't forget, McLaughlin is the guv who launched this whole thing! 

I LOVE DiMeola, mind you, and he has done many remarkable things in fusion, world music etc.  Al DiMeola and many other modern guitar phenoms come out of either Berklee School of Music or the Guitar Institute of Technology, and the craft of playing guitar is much more refined than in the early 1970's.  The instructors have taken the innovations of McLaughlin, Martino and others and honed them into amazing curriculum. 

John Petrucci is probably the most technically perfect guitarist to take a stage in this decade, but I find his music to be very cold.   Frank Gambale just amazes with his sweep-picking technique (he has taught at the GIT), but I know even better players.   It is just amazing how many gunslingers are out there!  Fortunately, the hair-band shredders of the 1980's have pretty much gone away. 

Look around for the hidden gems out there, a lot of amazing guitar players are toiling away in the orchestra pits of the big city shows (Thjis Van Leer was in a pit in Amsterdam when he founded Focus, playing keys for " Hair").   I can think of half a dozen in Chicago who would rival any of the "big name" guitarists we are talking about.  


Edited by cstack3 - February 24 2013 at 00:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 01:01
 
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Bob Fripp could smoke any of 'em.   I've known Fripp since the 1980s, have played in a band with one of his first Guitar Craft students, and played guitar for about 45 years myself.  

The scalar riffing of DiMeola is very impressive, but not nearly as much as Fripp's remarkable cross-picking technique.  Fripp also has ungodly long and strong fingers, his reach is unreal.   And we can't forget, McLaughlin is the guv who launched this whole thing! 

I LOVE DiMeola, mind you, and he has done many remarkable things in fusion, world music etc.  Al DiMeola and many other modern guitar phenoms come out of either Berklee School of Music or the Guitar Institute of Technology, and the craft of playing guitar is much more refined than in the early 1970's.  The instructors have taken the innovations of McLaughlin, Martino and others and honed them into amazing curriculum. 

John Petrucci is probably the most technically perfect guitarist to take a stage in this decade, but I find his music to be very cold.   Frank Gambale just amazes with his sweep-picking technique (he has taught at the GIT), but I know even better players.   It is just amazing how many gunslingers are out there!  Fortunately, the hair-band shredders of the 1980's have pretty much gone away. 

Look around for the hidden gems out there, a lot of amazing guitar players are toiling away in the orchestra pits of the big city shows (Thjis Van Leer was in a pit in Amsterdam when he founded Focus, playing keys for " Hair" when he founded Focus!).   I can think of half a dozen in Chicago who would rival any of the "big name" guitarists we are talking about.  
 
 
ApproveHeartThumbs Up everything you said, cstack3 Smile I can relate to it Hug
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 06:24
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:



Holdsworth can play that fast too, and in legato with incredible chord changes. 





DiMeola relies on what, tremolo picking, over a repetitive pattern?    There are plenty of virtuosos I'd much rather listen to, someone like Larry Carlton plays the most interesting leads without ever relying on speed.  Just listen to the chord changes on Kid Charlemagne.  It's probably fair to say DiMeola paved the way for the annoying showboats of the 80s, who rendered the guitar God permanently boring for he has in common with them an obsession with speed. 
 
Brill vid you posted RogerthatSmile however I should put you across my lap and smack you on your bottom coz Al is brillll too Big smile this is for you WinkHughttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcsVOQ82wLA
 
 
You're funny! LOL....It's cool that you are a DiMeola fan. I think some cats criss-cross him with others like John Goodsall stating "Have a look see"..."this guy is fast too"...I'd like to clear the air of these intentions and say that in my case..it has to do with road travel..where in my youth I traveled along side  of guitarists who were older than me that had enough experience and chops to blow your head off and make you wonder why they were not signed to a label like DiMeola? I traveled for 30 years and could not believe the amazing musicians who did not rise above theatres and clubs. No one in particular knows who they are...but being 18 years old and traveling the road...you come to the realization that there is a tribe of guitarists underneath the so called "top of the game" guitarists like DiMeola, McLaughlin, and others who are in fact just as capable to be that diverse. They haven't been signed and if they were signed it was brief where upon they backed another fusion or folk artist on a session and their name was not credited....which was my case..LOL But seriously...I was simply hoping to reach you on that point alone without intruding upon or insulting your tastes in music. I like In the Land of tHE Midnight Sun, Casino, and his work on Romantic Warrior.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 07:04
^^^  All of that is quite true and more or less sums up the bizarre ways of the industry.   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 13:28
Geek  So much of this seems to presume that virtuosity is something that can be measured.  Sure, things like speed, tempo, and what-not are measurable.  I love listening to all of the guitarists mentioned here, and on technical aspects they all have their virtues and limitations.  But I have always understood virtuosity as being also about personal interpretation and expression.  With classical music, you can hear the difference between say Perlman and Sarah Chang on the same piece.  Both are virtuosos, but they interpret the music differently.  That is why Otto Klemperer was known for conducting his interpretations of Beethoven's symphonies.  On a similar note, Arthur Rubinstein was not regarded as one of the best interpreters of Beethoven's piano concerti, but having heard them I do not care - the music and his performances are incredible.
 
With Prog, we are talking about people who perform mostly their own material, so we get not so much an issue of interpretation as one of expression.  Di Meola expresses himself on the guitar in a different way than Fripp, for example.  Both are amazing guitarists for different reasons.  Both are virtuosos, but in different ways.  This is why I listen to a lot of different guitarists - each wows me in different ways.  Ying Yang
 
We can reduce music to its technicalities.  Indeed, we must do so if we are to understand how it functions both as listeners and for many of us as musicians.  But we cannot reduce artistry to measurable quanta, even though we can experience it in a variety of ways (which can be cultivated and expanded). Sax manViolinHeadbanger
 
As a fan of Prog and good playing (I am the first to say that good music is good music no matter what genre we put it in), especially of guitar since I have been playing for more than 35 years, I have really been enjoying this thread.  So Handshake to all my bros out there, and Hug to the ladies, especially Sonia who, like me, is a big Al Di Meola fan.
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 14:18
Virtuosity is part of the overall sound of a song, if you use a mediocre musician to play a great song, you'll have terrible result. But the opposite is also true, if you make the best musician play a song that have no emotion, melody, you'll have the same results. The two goes together like body and spirit and the best band are those who find the best balance between the two.
Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness.

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