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Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: March 02 2013 at 12:51
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Dean wrote:
The argument that people who illegally download music will never buy music anyway is a perfectly valid statement but it is often used fallaciously. An artist cannot tally-up the number of downloads and count them as an exact number of lost sales, but they can use them as an indication of some degree of lost sales - if the downloads did not exist then they would sell more CDs - the people who download 1000s of albums illegally would buy some CDs if the illegal route was not available.
I've read your whole post, though the italicized part didn't make sense to me ... at least not yet.
A statement can be true but if it is used as justification for something that is not directly related then its use is a fallacy of logic, often an informal fallacy, but a fallacy none the less.
For example "people who illegally download music will never buy music anyway so their downloads harm no one". is a fallacy of logic.
Dayvenkirq wrote:
As per the text in bold: You don't believe that there are some people who are exceptions to that?
Then those people are wholly irrelevant because they are not music fans.
Sorry, but before you jump in with the standard response to that - I don't buy "I can't afford it" whinging and whining that predominates these arguments - if you cannot afford music then you are not entitled to it. Period.
If you can afford a laptop PC, an mp3 music player, headphones and use a broadband connection then you are not destitute.
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Points: 10970
Posted: March 02 2013 at 13:16
Dean wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
As per the text in bold: You don't believe that there are some people who are exceptions to that?
Then those people are wholly irrelevant because they are not music fans.
I happen to know one of those irrelevant people who is a music fan, been stealing for years but not very long ago his conscience felt some influence, so he started buying the real things, ... albeit he had access to file sharing services all along.
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: March 02 2013 at 13:23
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Dean wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
As per the text in bold: You don't believe that there are some people who are exceptions to that?
Then those people are wholly irrelevant because they are not music fans.
I happen to know one of those irrelevant people who is a music fan, been stealing for years but not very long ago his conscience felt some influence, so he started buying the real things.
Then your friend is not one of of those irrelevant people.
That person fails the test of being one of those "people who illegally download music will never buy music anyway" because he has bought music.
You began this by asking if there were exceptions to my assertion that "the people who download 1000s of albums illegally would buy some CDs if the illegal route was not available" - your friend is not one of those exceptions because he is buying the real thing even though an illegal route does exist.
Joined: May 25 2011
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Points: 10970
Posted: March 02 2013 at 13:48
^ I think there is some sort of confusion between us, but since we've resorted to banging our heads against the wall, then let's not continue this conversation.
Special Collaborator
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Posted: March 02 2013 at 13:49
Dayvenkirq wrote:
^ I think there is some sort of confusion between us, but since we've resorted to banging our heads against the wall, then let's not continue this conversation.
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
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Points: 16163
Posted: March 02 2013 at 17:23
Dear Steven
I can appreciate how you feel when some of your work shows up out there ... and was basically stolen before the time that you had meant for it to be released. It's not fun, and if you did that to a woman, the child would be dead.
Maybe, that's a good idea ... time to close the book on something that was "bugged" and not appreciated, or perhaps it was just plain given away accidentally, by someone that left a copy handing around and it was copied/stolen during his sleep.
You know ... I learned about this ... on a Luis Bunuel film ... I think it was "Los Olvidados" ... and the priest keeps giving a child some coins to get something or other tand the kid always manages to lose it or not get what is necessary ... and another priest asks him ... why do you do that, when you know he is not gonna come back with the goods? ... because he will know the difference one day!
Later in my life, I had a screenplay stolen. One of the problems is, that it is ME ... and about me ... and my inner mind and vision, and as such, anyone trying to make a movie of it, will screw it up and make a big mess of it ... and my copy, the original is at the Library of Congress, and you can not steal that! Rewrite it all you want ... but you will never know the main themes, ideas, loves, hates, and what all that visualization was all about.
There is a "psychic" gift, that you have not heard about, btw ... and it applis to you, since you have been ... LUCKY ... in your life ... and it goes like this ... when you think you just have it, and you're done, give it away, and you will be rewarded ten-fold!
Now, I'm not one for the religious bruhaha, but if there is one thing I've come to appreciate, is a state of grace and appreciation by many people, and you have that. It will be hard to meet the total amount of the bills ... well, hell's bells and balls ... I owe money on my car, one credit card, and that's it ... I still manage to find a few dollars to buy "The Incident", and unlike many of your fans, I have stood up for it ... I have not yet been able to purchase your solo albums, and I would love to have a couple of Richard's solo albums! My picture of him at the International Festival in SF 1999, still is one of my fondest memories of what a moment in music is about, and how someone cared so much to make things sound good, despite the worst of circumstances!
Sometimes, you do not get paid for that extra effort. I find it even SADDER still that someone took advantage of your hospitality and took something out ... but honestly ... write your "Not Now John" and let it go. Your memo will not be appreciated by everyone.
One last thing here on this and bootlegs. Two people that in the late 60's owned the boots were The Grateful Dead and Bob Dylan ... and it was the word of mouth of these concerts and how different they were from the albums themselves, that helped make these folks endearing to at least 2 generations of fans ... and the GF gave away even more than that ... and none of them ever said anything about that. Metallica tried to kill Napster, and instead what they did was start up the digital revolution ... of which you are also a part!
It is your work and I respect that ... but sometimes, your child wants to leave home and make its own love and life ... and who are you to stop them?
Take care ... and please, do not become a Mr. Fripp and punish the world for your own lack of inner perspective on your own richness. There aren't very many people that would gladly house you, just to make sure you could have a roof over your head! And they think the world of your music! As do I.
Pedro
Edited by moshkito - March 02 2013 at 17:25
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
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Posted: March 02 2013 at 17:41
Too much testosterone, also misunderstandings happen and this is ok too. Now lets all cheer up and hug each other. Here's an good example of a misunderstanding
Special Collaborator
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Posted: March 02 2013 at 18:03
moshkito wrote:
One last thing here on this and bootlegs. Two people that in the late 60's owned the boots were The Grateful Dead and Bob Dylan ... and it was the word of mouth of these concerts and how different they were from the albums themselves, that helped make these folks endearing to at least 2 generations of fans ... and the GF gave away even more than that ... and none of them ever said anything about that. Metallica tried to kill Napster, and instead what they did was start up the digital revolution ... of which you are also a part!
There is a whole world of difference between bootlegs and pirated copies of studio albums which makes any comparison between Metallica and the Grateful Dead totally meaningless (apart from them both being a bunch of tired old wannabe hippies).
moshkito wrote:
It is your work and I respect that ... but sometimes, your child wants to leave home and make its own love and life ... and who are you to stop them?
Are you being serious here Pedro? This album "left home" before it was "born" (ffs!) ... surely you must allow the "parent" some respect in allowing them to decide how, when, why and if.
Special Collaborator
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Posted: March 02 2013 at 18:22
I saw a fantastic concert by Steven last night. Tickets were only £22.50 and I'm guessing there were maybe 1000 people there (a full house, seated, at the Manchester Academy). With the stellar band he had on stage needing wages he must have been lucky to break even, though the merch desk was doing a roaring trade, To me, Wilson is the Peter Gabriel of the new millennium, just without the hit singles. He's out there doing exactly what he wants and on his terms. Anyone who "only" owns a digital copy of his music is a mug.
Joined: July 02 2008
Location: Manchester, UK
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Posted: March 04 2013 at 03:06
Tony R wrote:
I saw a fantastic concert by Steven last night. Tickets were only £22.50 and I'm guessing there were maybe 1000 people there (a full house, seated, at the Manchester Academy). With the stellar band he had on stage needing wages he must have been lucky to break even, though the merch desk was doing a roaring trade,
To me, Wilson is the Peter Gabriel of the new millennium, just without the hit singles. He's out there doing exactly what he wants and on his terms. Anyone who "only" owns a digital copy of his music is a mug.
I was there too and it was an absolutely fantastic gig , glad you enjoyed it too Tony. They are as good a collection of musicians it has been my pleasure to witness live.
I think he would have done pretty well financially that night, thank you very much . The gig had to be moved from a smaller venue such was the demand!
It's interesting note SW was not as upset as some people on this thread over this controversy. Of course he said he'd rather people buy it rather than download illegally but better that than for people not to hear it at all.
I was shocked that it had leaked as I pre-ordered this weeks back only to see hundreds of reviews on here from those that downloaded the leak. Personally I would never illegally download and would always rather have the physical copy. It was well worth waiting for, a truly superb album. I only hope those who downloaded will now do their bit and re-pay the man and his band by at least ordering something from SW/Burning Shed.
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
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Points: 16163
Posted: March 06 2013 at 13:02
Dean wrote:
...
There is a whole world of difference between bootlegs and pirated copies of studio albums which makes any comparison between Metallica and the Grateful Dead totally meaningless (apart from them both being a bunch of tired old wannabe hippies).
I disagree. In those days, it was very different than today. There were, I'm sure just as many tapes lost as there were tapes stolen. But in the end, you missed the point.
You will ALWAYS lose something ... willingly or not! In this case, likely stolen ... by someone he paid to be there, no less!
However ... bootlegs were a very good record of the person and a "diary" of sorts. The pirated/stolen copies (half the time it's their own roadies getting extra dollars!) ... so what? What do you expect? Papparazzi want to see your bees and your chees and your sunglasses and catch you with the bra hanging out and what not ... they don't care about anything else ... and if you want to go on a brigade against them go ahead ... but the fact is ... that just as much is out there "stolen" as it is "given out" ... and hearing someone that has so much complaining, is a bit like ... I want more money because I want to get a Jaguar or a Ferrari, instead of a Corvette. YOU will not have any sentiment on that any more than I do!
...
Dean wrote:
Are you being serious here Pedro? This album "left home" before it was "born" (ffs!) ... surely you must allow the "parent" some respect in allowing them to decide how, when, why and if.
Dean ... you are old enough to know that sometimes, people go their own way ... like it or not ... and that's that ... and you as a parent have a choice ... you either love them and appreciate their desire ... or go ahead and hate them, and go to church every Sunday swearing and complaining about having a child ... and sometimes, you lose a child along the way ... so what? You continue to live! Your emotions may die for a while ... but you continue to live. But hating your child for making his choice? ... he/she will know soon enough that ... here is my house ... you are making your own ... and there is nothing wrong with that!
ARTS, in order to make it, and GET somewhere, you just about have to leave home each and every damn time, just so folks like you and I can talk about it and end up calling it "progressive" 30 and 40 years later ... and here you are criticizing it something that happens over time ... and like it or not ... is a part of life and reality.
But to stand up, here, or anywhere else, as a stand-offish parent ... ok ... it's your choice ... I understand that, but you do not see my experience, and continually state that my experience is not "valid" ... the main difference was that I did NOT do as many drugs as everyone around me ... and I went for these different things, instead of top ten and top of the pops!
I appreciate Steven's work a lot, as you well know ... but I don't see the point of any of these folks complaining ... almost none of us, will ever even have a CD made and have 10 people listen to it and say something about it in Prog Archives ... and today, we've become so callous to the artistry and the work behind it, that we act like we don't care. I care tremendously ... but complaining to you, or to anyone here on the board ... is a DEAD END ... and in the end, really bad PR ... because some folks will get pee'd off for whatever reason.
There is a very wide gulf between NEED ... and GREED ... just remember that ... and I think that Steven will know ... even better ... how to handle it next time, so nothing gets stolen or get out before he is ready to release it. He'll probably have to play all the instruments himself, like the old days ... but what the heck.
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: March 06 2013 at 13:21
moshkito wrote:
Dean wrote:
...
There is a whole world of difference between bootlegs and pirated copies of studio albums which makes any comparison between Metallica and the Grateful Dead totally meaningless (apart from them both being a bunch of tired old wannabe hippies).
I disagree. In those days, it was very different than today. There were, I'm sure just as many tapes lost as there were tapes stolen. But in the end, you missed the point.
You will ALWAYS lose something ... willingly or not! In this case, likely stolen ... by someone he paid to be there, no less!
However ... bootlegs were a very good record of the person and a "diary" of sorts. The pirated/stolen copies (half the time it's their own roadies getting extra dollars!) ... so what? What do you expect? Papparazzi want to see your bees and your chees and your sunglasses and catch you with the bra hanging out and what not ... they don't care about anything else ... and if you want to go on a brigade against them go ahead ... but the fact is ... that just as much is out there "stolen" as it is "given out" ... and hearing someone that has so much complaining, is a bit like ... I want more money because I want to get a Jaguar or a Ferrari, instead of a Corvette. YOU will not have any sentiment on that any more than I do!
...
Eh?
So, if I read all this correctly, someone uploading a copy of Wilson's latest studio album BEFORE it was released is not stealing, it is, in your assessment, no worse than having a roadie recording a bootleg tape from the soundboard at a gig. As long as the ART has been made available for all to listen to then the ARTIST has nothing to complain about.
moshkito wrote:
Dean wrote:
Are you being serious here Pedro? This album "left home" before it was "born" (ffs!) ... surely you must allow the "parent" some respect in allowing them to decide how, when, why and if.
Dean ... you are old enough to know that sometimes, people go their own way ... like it or not ... and that's that ... and you as a parent have a choice ... you either love them and appreciate their desire ... or go ahead and hate them, and go to church every Sunday swearing and complaining about having a child ... and sometimes, you lose a child along the way ... so what? You continue to live! Your emotions may die for a while ... but you continue to live. But hating your child for making his choice? ... he/she will know soon enough that ... here is my house ... you are making your own ... and there is nothing wrong with that!
ARTS, in order to make it, and GET somewhere, you just about have to leave home each and every damn time, just so folks like you and I can talk about it and end up calling it "progressive" 30 and 40 years later ... and here you are criticizing it something that happens over time ... and like it or not ... is a part of life and reality.
But to stand up, here, or anywhere else, as a stand-offish parent ... ok ... it's your choice ... I understand that, but you do not see my experience, and continually state that my experience is not "valid" ... the main difference was that I did NOT do as many drugs as everyone around me ... and I went for these different things, instead of top ten and top of the pops!
I appreciate Steven's work a lot, as you well know ... but I don't see the point of any of these folks complaining ... almost none of us, will ever even have a CD made and have 10 people listen to it and say something about it in Prog Archives ... and today, we've become so callous to the artistry and the work behind it, that we act like we don't care. I care tremendously ... but complaining to you, or to anyone here on the board ... is a DEAD END ... and in the end, really bad PR ... because some folks will get pee'd off for whatever reason.
There is a very wide gulf between NEED ... and GREED ... just remember that ... and I think that Steven will know ... even better ... how to handle it next time, so nothing gets stolen or get out before he is ready to release it. He'll probably have to play all the instruments himself, like the old days ... but what the heck.
Eh?
So, if I read all this correctly, someone uploading a copy of Wilson's latest studio album BEFORE it was released is not stealing, it is, in your assessment, perfectly acceptable and if the ARTIST has made a few bucks to cover his expenses then that's a bonus and he has nothing to complain about.
Joined: January 04 2007
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Points: 16163
Posted: March 06 2013 at 13:21
dean wrote:
...There is a whole world of difference between bootlegs and pirated copies of studio albums which makes any comparison between Metallica and the Grateful Dead totally meaningless (apart from them both being a bunch of tired old wannabe hippies).
Btw, it's a shame that you can not make yourself sit and watch "The Trip", the documentary about Ken Kesey and others, about that time, and what came out of it. The GF is not a good representative of the literary tradition that folowed and helped bring about the psychedelia thing ... in some ways ... it had a lot more to do with something else ... and there is one moment in there ... that even you will appreciate ... and is Ken's comment about Nurse Ratchet. And the best comment of all is towards the end ... a very profound statement that is very subtle and pretty much tells you that everyone forgot what it was all about and just went to get stoned!
I didn't!
And my comments are from someone that did believe, and is not afraid to explain them ... and I still see the remnants and the fruits of the work fro those days ... there are not many generations that MAKE A MARK or a statement like mine and yours did ... agree or not ... we stood out! ... for one reason or another!
And yes, I did leave home, because in EVERY HOUSE, COUNTRY and such there already IS a God and the children don't mean anything ... that is the only bitterness I have about my family! 9 kids, and totally screwed up because of the God in the house! I can speak -- NOT -- from an idea! He maybe in the Brittanica and honorably buried in Portugal and whatever and whatever, but what he left behind was a legacy of ... who gives a damn! ... so go ahead and try and be forceful! and kissful to a legacy!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Joined: March 30 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Status: Offline
Points: 3841
Posted: March 06 2013 at 14:40
moshkito wrote:
I appreciate Steven's work a lot, as you well know ... but I don't see the point of any of these folks complaining ... almost none of us, will ever even have a CD made and have 10 people listen to it and say something about it in Prog Archives ... and today, we've become so callous to the artistry and the work behind it, that we act like we don't care. I care tremendously ... but complaining to you, or to anyone here on the board ... is a DEAD END ... and in the end, really bad PR ... because some folks will get pee'd off for whatever reason.
Sorry to wade in here, but I somewhat disagree with this statement.
Pedro, I gather you're a musician and have 'lost' a good amount of music over the years. It also seems that you're accepting of this, which is your choice. As a musician, you have the right to pick your battles as you see fit.
When something like this is debated in this forum, there are people that are reading it and not commenting. There have been almost four thousand 'reads' of this thread alone. I'm certainly not saying that four thousand different people have read the thread, but I would guess more people have read it without commenting. If by our arguments, we can convince ten people to buy their music rather than steal it, then some good has been done.
Furthermore, as one of the premier progressive rock web sites on the internet, we rely on many different walks of life to maintain that credibility. If we condone, even implicitly, illegal downloading of music, we loose a certain amount of credibility with the artists themselves. We, as a web community, are honored by the musicians that frequent our website. Frankly, I'm not willing to compromise our reputation as a community by not giving the people that steal music a free pass for any reason.
I've had conversations with artists that I respect tremendously, Phideaux Xavier, John Young, Jonas Reingold, Nad Sylvan . . . Each and every time I talk with one of these artists, I'm able to hold my head up high when I talk about our website because we have a good reputation. As I said, I'm not willing to let that reputation to be tarnished by taking any other stance other than what Dean and many other have said.
As I said, I disagree with your statement. There may be a lot of people that will never be convinced that illegal downloading is a bad thing, but this is not a dead end conversation, this is relevant to many people that aren't commenting here.
Special Collaborator
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Posted: March 07 2013 at 03:02
moshkito wrote:
dean wrote:
...There is a whole world of difference between bootlegs and pirated copies of studio albums which makes any comparison between Metallica and the Grateful Dead totally meaningless (apart from them both being a bunch of tired old wannabe hippies).
Btw, it's a shame that you can not make yourself sit and watch "The Trip", the documentary about Ken Kesey and others, about that time, and what came out of it. The GF is not a good representative of the literary tradition that folowed and helped bring about the psychedelia thing ... in some ways ... it had a lot more to do with something else ... and there is one moment in there ... that even you will appreciate ... and is Ken's comment about Nurse Ratchet. And the best comment of all is towards the end ... a very profound statement that is very subtle and pretty much tells you that everyone forgot what it was all about and just went to get stoned!
I didn't!
And my comments are from someone that did believe, and is not afraid to explain them ... and I still see the remnants and the fruits of the work fro those days ... there are not many generations that MAKE A MARK or a statement like mine and yours did ... agree or not ... we stood out! ... for one reason or another!
I feel no shame in not seeing "Magic Trip", I feel no shame about not seeing something that does not interest me, a film by people who are not my contemporaries, about a subculture I have no affinity with or respect for, set in a country I have no connection to, about a time I have no experience of. If Kesey sits between the beatniks and the hippies then I sit between the hippies and the punks (but I have no affinity with those subcultures either), I was seven in 1964, Prog Rock was my generation and that was not a subculture.
However, that is all irrelevant. Bootlegs are not the same as pirated studio albums. The biggest names in rock music were bootlegged beyond comprehension but they also sold a hell of a lot of studio albums - the bootleggers fed off that popularity. When the pirates steal the remaining sources of revenue for an artist they become the parasite that kills the host.
moshkito wrote:
And yes, I did leave home, because in EVERY HOUSE, COUNTRY and such there already IS a God and the children don't mean anything ... that is the only bitterness I have about my family! 9 kids, and totally screwed up because of the God in the house! I can speak -- NOT -- from an idea! He maybe in the Brittanica and honorably buried in Portugal and whatever and whatever, but what he left behind was a legacy of ... who gives a damn! ... so go ahead and try and be forceful! and kissful to a legacy!
Yes, you left home, we all grow up and leave home, we all fly the nest. The problem with this metaphor/analogy is that it is both specious and not even relevant. An album of music is not a living creature, it is created with the same love and devotion perhaps and is poetically called the artist's baby but that is as far as the similarity can be extended, it is the artist's property and for that it is covered by copyright, both of creation and of performance - the album of music remains with its creator for the lifetime of the the artist plus 70 years (in the UK, the USA says 50 years) UNLESS the artists choses to relinquish his copyright - and that his choice, not yours and not anybody's but his own.
Yes, you left home, you were not stolen from your mother's womb by pirates.
My father was a carpenter, he is not in the Encyclopedia Britannica, the church where his ashes are buried misplaced his plot so we're not sure where his remains lay, he has no legacy but flesh and blood and when I die our family name dies with me, so you can kiss the ars gratia artis.
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Dayvenkirq wrote:
Here's an good example of a misunderstanding 
funny 
Are you being serious here Pedro? This album "left home" before it was "born" (ffs!) ... surely you must allow the "parent" some respect in allowing them to decide how, when, why and if.
, glad you enjoyed it too Tony. They are as good a collection of musicians it has been my pleasure to witness live.
. The gig had to be moved from a smaller venue such was the demand!
Eh?