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Good prog band, bad drummer |
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ten years after
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Topic: Good prog band, bad drummerPosted: March 19 2013 at 03:20 |
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Very under-rated (even by himself it would seem).
No bad drummer could play A Saucerful of Secrets.
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Jim Garten
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Posted: March 19 2013 at 03:51 |
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Ooh, harsh... but now I come to think of it...
I think he was employed to distract the audience from Euan Lowson's voice/lyrics/makeup/beergut/ego/stage-presence/oh-god-I-went-to-see-them-at-Hammersmith-on-the-Sentinel-tour... |
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
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dr wu23
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Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Online Status: Offline Posts: 459 |
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Posted: March 19 2013 at 11:36 |
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Wow..you detest the rolling Stones..? Something in your childhood...? I will agree that Watts is an average drummer and I feel the same way about Ringo. I never understood all those who claim they were great drummers. |
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Et In Arcadia Ego
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Snow Dog
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Posted: March 19 2013 at 11:40 |
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Considering he had virtually no practise of the songs and had just flown to US after performing in London...he did pretty good. And to judge all his drumming on that one performance is...pretty bad.
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Jim Garten
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Posted: March 19 2013 at 11:44 |
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More likely bored - he's actually a pretty good jazz drummer; listen to this & tell me he's average...
Enjoy
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
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tszirmay
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Posted: March 19 2013 at 12:59 |
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LOL, no , my childhood was glorious !
the RS were good circa Brian Jones period but frankly since his swimming pool death, the recorded results have been laughable at best. I sincerely believe that they represent corporate rock n roll as a business better than anyone else, actually conning fans into believing they are genuine musicians! Ha! ![]() |
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"Secret career in counter-espionage, covering his fear in clever camouflage" Robert Calvert . "I don't remember, I don't recall, I've got no memory of anything at all"
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tszirmay
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Posted: March 19 2013 at 13:00 |
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JIM, you are perfect in using the term "BORED" and frankly backs up my general claim on the Stones.
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"Secret career in counter-espionage, covering his fear in clever camouflage" Robert Calvert . "I don't remember, I don't recall, I've got no memory of anything at all"
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TODDLER
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Posted: March 20 2013 at 09:18 |
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They both had an interest in "Big band Jazz". That meant that either 1 of them could play a buzz roll or a cross roll on the snare drum and if you listened closely to Beatles/Stones there was a definite indication that they knew how to play a "roundhouse" with style. "Roundhouse" was a term used by Jazz drummers I traveled with in the 70's. It's doing a fast clean roll starting with the snare, across 2 toms, and shifting your position to end the roll on 1 or 2 floor toms, ending with an accent and proceeding to continue the basic 4/4/ beat. Mick Avory from The Kinks also mastered this. It's all standard stuff, but it places them a step above many other drummers from the British Invasion period. Prior to double bass drum technique and accented triplets that developed in rock music from mid 60's to late, it was all we had. Some of Ringo's drum work in the early days contained some very fast/clean drum rolls on the snare. If you were able to completely mix out all the other instruments on early Beatles recordings and focus on his rolls , it might feel as if you are listening to a little bit of hidden Jazz technique. What made them both unique was how they created different sounds for what would be defined then as the "Rock song" . The sound of Charlie Watts' snare drum on "Jumping Jack Flash" or Ringo's oddball snare sound on "Revolution" were ideas to change the sound of the music and it's times. In that sense..they were odd drummers. Schooled well in only certain areas of "styles" and asked to create for Lennon/McCartney and Jagger/Richards.
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moshkito
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Posted: March 20 2013 at 10:09 |
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The bad side of this is, that, for a piece like "A Saucerful of Secrets", you are comparing a mechanical player, with a player that is not mechanical, whose job is to help add tone and color to the piece ... and that means "drumming" is out the door ... but folks that can only count to 4 and try to do DAW impressions, or metronome impressions, will never "get it" when it comes to experimental, free form and something-else music ... that is not to be tied down to a stupid form! Nick Mason is more of a feel and touch drummer ... and he would never bother playing a DT piece because of its poor drumming design, that brings the music down to mechanics, and nothing else but different notes within the same mechanics ... and that does not make for very good "new" music!
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Some old holy curmudgeon said from his holy trinity of a chapala ... none of the hits, none of the time ... is always better sex for your and your lover!
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KingCrInuYasha
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Posted: March 20 2013 at 10:55 |
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Greatly disagree with you in regards to Let It Bleed, Sticky Fingers and Exile On Main Street. I don't think the whole "turning into corporate rock bores" thing occurred until after Tattoo You, by which point, they really had nothing interesting left to say. |
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He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
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tszirmay
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Posted: March 20 2013 at 11:05 |
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Fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion. But WE seem to both agree that by 1973 (The horrid Goats Head Soup) , this band has not made anything stellar in the past 40 years! Is 40 years of drivel not proof enough?
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"Secret career in counter-espionage, covering his fear in clever camouflage" Robert Calvert . "I don't remember, I don't recall, I've got no memory of anything at all"
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chopper
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Posted: March 20 2013 at 11:28 |
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chopper
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Posted: March 20 2013 at 11:30 |
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I can't agree about Ringo Starr though, listen to "Ticket to Ride" for one example. My band have given up playing it because it was too difficult for our drummer. Edited by chopper - March 20 2013 at 11:31 |
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Jim Garten
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Posted: March 20 2013 at 11:55 |
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Never stopped the Grateful Dead
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
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Dellinger
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Posted: March 20 2013 at 14:48 |
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Indeed I loved the live albums I heard from Gabriel era Genesis (Genesis Live, and Live at the Rainbow), and the main reason I liked many of the songs better live than studio are the drums. I just wouldn't want to hear the studio version of "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight" again, it would be too tame. |
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verslibre
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Posted: March 21 2013 at 11:16 |
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And how about those nifty Brand X recordings!
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Guldbamsen
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Posted: March 21 2013 at 11:20 |
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^Exactly!
Phil Collins is one of my absolute favourite drummers. |
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
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Billy 7
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Posted: March 22 2013 at 18:35 |
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Nik Mason = poor drummer who got lucky
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moshkito
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Posted: March 23 2013 at 13:10 |
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I disagree and think that is a sad comment, and just to give you an idea how different folks can be and how many different things can be done with a drum kit ... that 90% of all the drummers in "prog" never do, or are capable of doing! If all you want is a time keeper, get a flipping metronome! If all you want is an idiot DAW, why are you getting a Mike P to bang away on the snare drum every 4th beat ... or skip one once in a while, to show how clever he is! The test of how good you are in your instrument, is about how far you can take it ... that others don't ... and that is the history of music ... except in "prog", and "fan-boards", where we measure everything by "favorites" and "music we like" and not objectively, by the music that was made. There is a reason or 2, more like 4 actually, why Pink Floyd made it ... and Nick Mason is as much a part of it as every one else in the band ... end of story. And it is also unfair that so many folks consider Ringo a bad drummer ... he only became a bad drummer after the Beatles when he didn't ahve to drum anymore ... all he had to do is sit there and look pretty for the cameras! But the drumming, the accents and the moments, with the kit, in the last 3 or 4 albums is faultless ... and you can not teach that, because too many folks can only count 1, 2, 3, 4 and nothing else ... if you can't get off the mechanics and get back on them, you are not a musician ... they used to say that you are a teacher -- a musician that didn't make it! It's still the same today ... except that we're so indoctrinated by top ten and crap that we don't even have any idea what is good or bad, or worse ... right or wrong! And music history doesn't need another time keeper ... but a drummer that can make you feel the clouds, the wind, the thunder and the whispers ... which most can't display! The majority of drummers listed here would never survive 3 minutes of "A Saucerfull of Secrets" ... and I tried this in 1973 when even my roomate - a magnificent drummer inspired by Carl Palmer -- could not do Pierre Moerlin in Gong's You, and he even said ... that was difficult! He also had a hard time duplicating some parts in the Amon Duul 2 material ... !!! But no ... we compare it to the easiest and simplest material! Phil Collins was good until "The Lamb ... " and after that, he did not have time to dedicate to his drumming anymore. And some of his best work after that was in a couple of Eno albums. Even in the Brand X stuff, it was not that great, but added a nice personality that the band never had again no matter how hard Ollie tried ... he just could not find a good drummer!
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Some old holy curmudgeon said from his holy trinity of a chapala ... none of the hits, none of the time ... is always better sex for your and your lover!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Snow Dog
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Posted: March 23 2013 at 13:21 |
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So glad we got Moshtiko to tell us what good drumming is.
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