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Good prog band, bad drummer

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ten years after View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ten years after Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2013 at 03:20
Originally posted by Ruby900 Ruby900 wrote:

Nick Mason......????
 
Very under-rated (even by himself it would seem).
 
No bad drummer could play A Saucerful of Secrets.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Garten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2013 at 03:51
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Anyone mentioned COUGH+++ Mick Pointer+++COUGH yet?


Ooh, harsh... but now I come to think of it...

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

..or that geezer who played on the first Pallas album. Oh wait, the thread title says 'good prog band'


I think he was employed to distract the audience from Euan Lowson's voice/lyrics/makeup/beergut/ego/stage-presence/oh-god-I-went-to-see-them-at-Hammersmith-on-the-Sentinel-tour...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2013 at 11:36
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Not prog but I always felt that Charlie Watts was a rather poor, rather sloppy  drummer ! Of course, I detest the Rolling Stones, so I am biased (I assure you a rare event!) . 
 
Wow..you detest the rolling Stones..? Something in your childhood...?  Wink
 
I will agree that Watts is an average drummer and I feel the same way about Ringo. I never understood all those who claim they were great drummers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2013 at 11:40
Originally posted by Billy 7 Billy 7 wrote:

Phil Collins- he screwed up LZ at Band Aid & was generally the Ringo of the 80's !
Nothing great or good about his drumming
A decent actor & singer though!

Considering he had virtually no practise of the songs and had just flown  to US after performing in London...he did pretty  good. And to judge all his drumming on that one performance is...pretty bad.
Coldness doth get away with the badness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Garten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2013 at 11:44
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

I will agree that Watts is an average drummer


More likely bored - he's actually a pretty good jazz drummer; listen to this & tell me he's average...



Enjoy

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2013 at 12:59
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Not prog but I always felt that Charlie Watts was a rather poor, rather sloppy  drummer ! Of course, I detest the Rolling Stones, so I am biased (I assure you a rare event!) . 
 
Wow..you detest the rolling Stones..? Something in your childhood...?  Wink
 
I will agree that Watts is an average drummer and I feel the same way about Ringo. I never understood all those who claim they were great drummers.
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LOL, no , my childhood was glorious ! LOL the RS were good circa Brian Jones period but frankly since his swimming pool death, the recorded results have been laughable at best. I sincerely believe that they represent corporate rock n roll as a business better than anyone else, actually conning fans into believing they are genuine musicians! Ha! Pig
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2013 at 13:00
Originally posted by Jim Garten Jim Garten wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

I will agree that Watts is an average drummer


More likely bored - he's actually a pretty good jazz drummer; listen to this & tell me he's average...



Enjoy


JIM, you are perfect in using the term "BORED" and frankly backs up my general claim on the Stones. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TODDLER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2013 at 09:18
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Not prog but I always felt that Charlie Watts was a rather poor, rather sloppy  drummer ! Of course, I detest the Rolling Stones, so I am biased (I assure you a rare event!) . 
 
Wow..you detest the rolling Stones..? Something in your childhood...?  Wink
 
I will agree that Watts is an average drummer and I feel the same way about Ringo. I never understood all those who claim they were great drummers.
Confused
 
They both had an interest in "Big band Jazz". That meant that either 1 of them could play a buzz roll or a cross roll on the snare drum and  if you listened closely to Beatles/Stones there was a definite indication that they knew how to play a "roundhouse" with style. "Roundhouse" was a term used by Jazz drummers I traveled with in the 70's. It's doing a fast clean roll starting with the snare, across 2 toms, and shifting your position to end the roll on 1 or 2 floor toms, ending with an accent and proceeding to continue the basic 4/4/ beat. Mick Avory from The Kinks also mastered this. It's all standard stuff, but it places them a step above many other drummers from the British Invasion period. Prior to double bass drum technique and accented triplets that developed in rock music from mid 60's to late, it was all we had. Some of Ringo's drum work in the early days contained some very fast/clean drum rolls on the snare. If you were able to completely mix out all the other instruments on early Beatles recordings and focus on his rolls , it might feel as if you are listening to a little bit of hidden Jazz technique. What made them both unique was how they created different sounds for what would be defined then as the "Rock song" . The sound of Charlie Watts' snare drum on "Jumping Jack Flash" or Ringo's oddball snare sound on "Revolution" were ideas to change the sound of the music and it's times. In that sense..they were odd drummers. Schooled well in only certain areas of "styles" and asked to create for Lennon/McCartney and Jagger/Richards.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2013 at 10:09
Originally posted by ten years after ten years after wrote:

Originally posted by Ruby900 Ruby900 wrote:

Nick Mason......????
 
Very under-rated (even by himself it would seem).
 
No bad drummer could play A Saucerful of Secrets.
 
The bad side of this is, that, for a piece like "A Saucerful of Secrets", you are comparing a mechanical player, with a player that is not mechanical, whose job is to help add tone and color to the piece ... and that means "drumming" is out the door ... but folks that can only count to 4 and try to do DAW impressions, or metronome impressions, will never "get it" when it comes to experimental, free form and something-else music ... that is not to be tied down to a stupid form!
 
Nick Mason is more of a feel and touch drummer ... and he would never bother playing a DT piece because of its poor drumming design, that brings the music down to mechanics, and nothing else but different notes within the same mechanics ... and that does not make for very good "new" music!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KingCrInuYasha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2013 at 10:55
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:



...

LOL, no , my childhood was glorious ! LOL the RS were good circa Brian Jones period but frankly since his swimming pool death, the recorded results have been laughable at best. I sincerely believe that they represent corporate rock n roll as a business better than anyone else, actually conning fans into believing they are genuine musicians! Ha! Pig


Greatly disagree with you in regards to Let It Bleed, Sticky Fingers and Exile On Main Street. I don't think the whole "turning into corporate rock bores" thing occurred until after Tattoo You, by which point, they really had nothing interesting left to say.
He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2013 at 11:05
Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha KingCrInuYasha wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:



...

LOL, no , my childhood was glorious ! LOL the RS were good circa Brian Jones period but frankly since his swimming pool death, the recorded results have been laughable at best. I sincerely believe that they represent corporate rock n roll as a business better than anyone else, actually conning fans into believing they are genuine musicians! Ha! Pig


Greatly disagree with you in regards to Let It Bleed, Sticky Fingers and Exile On Main Street. I don't think the whole "turning into corporate rock bores" thing occurred until after Tattoo You, by which point, they really had nothing interesting left to say.

Fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion. But WE seem to both agree that by 1973 (The horrid Goats Head Soup) , this band has not made anything stellar in the past 40 years! 

Is 40 years of drivel not proof enough? Shocked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2013 at 11:28
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Billy 7 Billy 7 wrote:

Phil Collins- he screwed up LZ at Band Aid & was generally the Ringo of the 80's !
Nothing great or good about his drumming
A decent actor & singer though!

Considering he had virtually no practise of the songs and had just flown  to US after performing in London...he did pretty  good. And to judge all his drumming on that one performance is...pretty bad.
Collins is an excellent drummer - his work on Genesis Live is as good as anything else in prog.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2013 at 11:30
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Not prog but I always felt that Charlie Watts was a rather poor, rather sloppy  drummer ! Of course, I detest the Rolling Stones, so I am biased (I assure you a rare event!) . 
 
Wow..you detest the rolling Stones..? Something in your childhood...?  Wink
 
I will agree that Watts is an average drummer and I feel the same way about Ringo. I never understood all those who claim they were great drummers.
Confused
I do feel that Watts tends to use the same drum pattern all the time, certainly in the early days, mind you I was quite surprised at how small a kit he uses. On a recent live video I saw, he only used 2 toms.
 
I can't agree about Ringo Starr though, listen to "Ticket to Ride" for one example. My band have given up playing it because it was too difficult for our drummer.


Edited by chopper - March 20 2013 at 11:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Garten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2013 at 11:55
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Is 40 years of drivel not proof enough? Shocked


Never stopped the Grateful Dead


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2013 at 14:48
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Billy 7 Billy 7 wrote:

Phil Collins- he screwed up LZ at Band Aid & was generally the Ringo of the 80's ! Nothing great or good about his drumming A decent actor & singer though!


Considering he had virtually no practise of the songs and had just flown  to US after performing in London...he did pretty  good. And to judge all his drumming on that one performance is...pretty bad.


Collins is an excellent drummer - his work on Genesis Live is as good as anything else in prog.


Indeed I loved the live albums I heard from Gabriel era Genesis (Genesis Live, and Live at the Rainbow), and the main reason I liked many of the songs better live than studio are the drums. I just wouldn't want to hear the studio version of "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight" again, it would be too tame.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2013 at 11:16
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Collins is an excellent drummer - his work on Genesis Live is as good as anything else in prog.
 
And how about those nifty Brand X recordings!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2013 at 11:20
^Exactly!
Phil Collins is one of my absolute favourite drummers.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2013 at 18:35
Nik Mason = poor drummer who got lucky
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2013 at 13:10
Originally posted by Billy 7 Billy 7 wrote:

Nik Mason = poor drummer who got lucky
 
I disagree and think that is a sad comment, and just to give you an idea how different folks can be and how many different things can be done with a drum kit ... that 90% of all the drummers in "prog" never do, or are capable of doing!
 
If all you want is a time keeper, get a flipping metronome! If all you want is an idiot DAW, why are you getting a Mike P to bang away on the snare drum every 4th beat ... or skip one once in a while, to show how clever he is!
 
The test of how good you are in your instrument, is about how far you can take it ... that others don't ... and that is the history of music ... except in "prog", and "fan-boards", where we measure everything by "favorites" and "music we like" and not objectively, by the music that was made.
 
There is a reason or 2, more like 4 actually, why Pink Floyd made it ... and Nick Mason is as much a part of it as every one else in the band ... end of story.
 
And it is also unfair that so many folks consider Ringo a bad drummer ... he only became a bad drummer after the Beatles when he didn't ahve to drum anymore ... all he had to do is sit there and look pretty for the cameras! But the drumming, the accents and the moments, with the kit, in the last 3 or 4 albums is faultless ... and you can not teach that, because too many folks can only count 1, 2, 3, 4 and nothing else ... if you can't get off the mechanics and get back on them, you are not a musician ... they used to say that you are a teacher -- a musician that didn't make it!
 
It's still the same today ... except that we're so indoctrinated by top ten and crap that we don't even have any idea what is good or bad, or worse ... right or wrong! And music history doesn't need another time keeper ... but a drummer that can make you feel the clouds, the wind, the thunder and the whispers ... which most can't display! The majority of drummers listed here would never survive 3 minutes of "A Saucerfull of Secrets" ... and I tried this in 1973 when even my roomate - a magnificent drummer inspired by Carl Palmer -- could not do Pierre Moerlin in Gong's You, and he even said ... that was difficult! He also had a hard time duplicating some parts in the Amon Duul 2 material ... !!!
 
But no ... we compare it to the easiest and simplest material!
 
Phil Collins was good until "The Lamb ... " and after that, he did not have time to dedicate to his drumming anymore. And some of his best work after that was in a couple of Eno albums. Even in the Brand X stuff, it was not that great, but added a nice personality that the band never had again no matter how hard Ollie tried ... he just could not find a good drummer!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2013 at 13:21
So glad we got Moshtiko to tell us what good drumming is.Dead
Coldness doth get away with the badness.
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