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Prog clichés

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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2013 at 09:52
Originally posted by Progosopher Progosopher wrote:

Playing 20 notes in a second of time when a mere 10 will do . . . or even one.


Yes, generally the need to make it all very busy and utilize every fill.   I am not saying all prog is like that, but a lot of it is.   Take Bruford on Fallen Angel....the downbeat nature of the song seems to make him almost restless. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ajay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2013 at 11:54
Sounding like Jon Anderson.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ajay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2013 at 11:55
^ Unless you are, in fact, Jon Anderson.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2013 at 12:08
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

The people who create cliches are always far more important than the talentless hacks who recognize the phenomenon being subsequently repeated by others e.g. Dylan, Floyd and the Beatles could be considered the primal movers and shakers for what would become our beloved Prog.
Dylan? How?
"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stool Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2013 at 12:15
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

The people who create cliches are always far more important than the talentless hacks who recognize the phenomenon being subsequently repeated by others e.g. Dylan, Floyd and the Beatles could be considered the primal movers and shakers for what would become our beloved Prog.
Dylan? How?
(I'm not remotely a Dylan fan, by the way)
 
1965 - Jukebox companies lose their tight grip on how long a pop song can be, and Dylan writes "Like A Rolling Stone", the first six-minute pop song.
1966 - Dylan releases the first double album.
 
I'd say having the first long song and the first double album makes him a prime mover for making prog possible.
rotten hound of the burnie crew
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2013 at 12:15
^ M-hm.
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Profound lyrics about universal love/philosophy will always be poignant (as long as they're done well!), ...
What do you mean by "done well"? I think there are some philosophical lyrics that work if they are insightful. If not, I don't see any chance on poignancy.
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

concept albums don't lose their resonancy because many of them are made, ...
I don't get that one.
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

complex musical ideas have been used for hundreds of years and didn't become cliche in jazz or classical music.
... though still there are times when complexity can be useless when it's done for the sake of complexity.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - March 21 2013 at 12:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HarbouringTheSoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2013 at 12:45
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

concept albums don't lose their resonancy because many of them are made, ...
I don't get that one.

I think he means that just because there are a lot of concept albums, that doesn't mean they have lost their resonance. But I can see how one would read it the other way around (that because there are a lot of them, they haven't lost their resonance).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2013 at 12:52
^ Looks like we understand different things by "resonance". Oh, well. My point was that sometimes conceptualization isn't necessary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Horizons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2013 at 14:07
Many of these i don't find cliche whatsoever. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Mystical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2013 at 14:32
It is cliche to not be cliche.
I am currently digging:

Hawkwind, Rare Bird, Gong, Tangerine Dream, Khan, Iron Butterfly, and all things canterbury and hard-psych. I also love jazz!

Please drop me a message with album suggestions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rdtprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2013 at 15:04
this thread is becoming a real cliché...
“Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.”
― Frank Zappa

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stool Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2013 at 15:15
Originally posted by rdtprog rdtprog wrote:

this thread is becoming a real cliché...
 
It's only one thread.  Not like a This band vs That band poll, of which there are hundreds
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2013 at 16:47
Falsetto male vocals
Pipe organ thrown in for dramatic effect
Lyrics involving a quest usually by a soldier who then learns the futility of war
Fast keyboard runs for the sake of it


and I have just described Glass Hammer who I love. Who cares about cliche? I don'tSmile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wilmon91 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2013 at 17:43
Clichés are probably found in less great prog bands with obvious influences that are over-emphasizing some element, for example the rhythm in a 7/8 groove, as if the time signature is the heart of the song.

And in a related way.... songs beginning with a complex groove in odd time-meter - but that section is typically followed by a plain groove in 4/4, overly simple in comparison, making you feel that the complex section was just an exercise, and the 4/4  section is an in-between section were you can relax.

In other words, contrived ways of using odd time signatures.


Another cliche could be spacy synth solos with a sort of sound that for example Mark Kelly of Marillion have used in some solos, like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q79xkgIXhmU&t=1m52s
(I wouldn't call this example cliché but there are probably other neoprog bands that have used this sound in this way)
(by the way, I think this 7/8 song is good, so not an example of over-emphasized 7/8 groove Smile )

There are no clichés related to good prog! I think!?!


Edited by wilmon91 - March 21 2013 at 17:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twosteves Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2013 at 17:46
Anything by VDGG---LOL---(excuse me why I run and hide from attack)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NotAProghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2013 at 17:51
Lyrics about artificial problems like split personality, depressions. Awful!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aldri7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2013 at 18:10
I can listen to modern prog that is heavily influenced by the greats of the 70's and not feel like I'm being bombarded by cliches. Its a delicate line. When that happens, you just feel like you're putting on a comfortable old shoe. But that doesn't happen most of the time when I listen to new prog. Most of the time, I hear cliches, and they are too numerous to mention.

A cliche is a little more transient a thing compared to an influence which to me is broader - its a motif, structure, lyrical device, gimmick, solo, instrument use, etc that has been known to work in the past and so gets used over and over. The electric guitar solo is the biggest cliche in all of rock, IMHO. And when none is really called for and you still get one, I get especially irritated. 

But otherwise, I'm just glad that prog is still alive and well. Its established itself as a marketable genre with a solid fan base thats not going away. Put out new prog year after year and if it sounds too much like old prog, I'll move on. But at least the genre didn't die out completely. 

aldri7


Edited by aldri7 - March 21 2013 at 18:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2013 at 19:21
Originally posted by Ajay Ajay wrote:

Playing bass like Chris Squire.

It's kind of hard not to, when you are slinging one of these babies around!   Rotosound strings, Herco plectrum etc.    

This one is a 1973...

...yeah, I guess playing a Rick bass with a plectrum IS a prog cliche!  Squire, Rutherford, Bennett, Camp, Strater etc.!   Greg Lake couldn't stand Ricks, and they aren't for everyone's tastes!  But man, do they play great!  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2013 at 19:34
 - Single-musician/songwriter multi-instrumentalism.
 - Experimentation by spitting on tape, dipping it in acid and playing it, etc. Tongue


Edited by Dayvenkirq - March 21 2013 at 19:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ambient Hurricanes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2013 at 22:39
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul HarbouringTheSoul wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

concept albums don't lose their resonancy because many of them are made, ...
I don't get that one.

I think he means that just because there are a lot of concept albums, that doesn't mean they have lost their resonance. But I can see how one would read it the other way around (that because there are a lot of them, they haven't lost their resonance).


Yeah, I meant it the first way.
In blood, he's writing the lyrics of a brand new tune.
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