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Prog clichés

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Progosopher View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Progosopher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Prog clichés
    Posted: March 22 2013 at 00:57
Originally posted by cstack3

Originally posted by Ajay

Playing bass like Chris Squire.

It's kind of hard not to, when you are slinging one of these babies around!   Rotosound strings, Herco plectrum etc.    

This one is a 1973...

...yeah, I guess playing a Rick bass with a plectrum IS a prog cliche!  Squire, Rutherford, Bennett, Camp, Strater etc.!   Greg Lake couldn't stand Ricks, and they aren't for everyone's tastes!  But man, do they play great!  


I generally don't blay bass, but I like playing on Ricks.  It is easy to play them like low-end guitars.  Spectres are also very cool for my guitar playing hands.
 
 Back to the topic though, we need to distinguish cliches from characteristics.  Characteristics are defining, cliches are overused or elements used for their own sake.
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2013 at 02:53
Cliches are good, that's why they are cliches.................
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2013 at 02:58
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

The Free Online Dictionary defines cliche as "A trite or overused expression or idea", further explaining that the word denotes "an expression or idea that has lost its originality or force through overuse".  I think some of the responders are mistaking "common themes/tropes" for "cliches."  Profound lyrics about universal love/philosophy will always be poignant (as long as they're done well!), concept albums don't lose their resonancy because many of them are made, complex musical ideas have been used for hundreds of years and didn't become cliche in jazz or classical music.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - March 22 2013 at 02:59
"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rdtprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2013 at 04:31
the way Marillion latest incarnation structure their songs by starting slowly with some piano lines and building to a crescendo the melody where every instruments kicks in with Steve Hogarth screaming his heart out. Well, maybe it shows the end of the prog style and the beginning of  post-rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote infandous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2013 at 09:53
You know, most of what has been posted so far sounds more like pet peeves of the individual poster.  Things they don't like and are tired of hearing.  Is it still a cliche if most people love it?  Like the example of guitar solos.  They are the biggest actual cliche mentioned, yet most rock fans would be very disappointed if they were suddenly no longer used.  Personally, I'm not crazy about songs that DON'T have a guitar solo of some sort in them.

However, I think it's safe to say that the many variations of "apocalypse in 9/8" found in prog from the 80's until now, is definitely a cliche.  I still love the sound though, and usually don't mind bands doing their take on it.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote KingCrInuYasha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2013 at 12:10
Embracing new wave and world music upon running out of ideas from prog (no offense Peter Gabriel, King Crimson and Rush). 
He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jude111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2013 at 17:58
Originally posted by Quirky Turkey

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwyj3D13QhA

This includes a few.

Hahaha, Richard Ayoade and Matt Berry - I *love* those guys! I wish they'd make more IT Crowd episodes... or Garth Marenghi's Darkplace for that matter... (On the other hand, there's probably already more than enough Mighty Boosh for the world to handle... LOL)


Edited by jude111 - March 22 2013 at 23:23
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Post Options Post Options   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2013 at 23:13
ummmm....rock musicians wearing capes, perhaps?  

I can't think of many rock idioms that employed the onstage cape as much as prog!  This is a nice one....Steve Howe, "Solos Tour," 14 August, 1976, Hawthorne Park, Illinois....


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Post Options Post Options   Quote DisgruntledPorcupine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2013 at 02:04
Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha

Embracing new wave and world music upon running out of ideas from prog (no offense Peter Gabriel, King Crimson and Rush). 
I don't see how trying something new equates to running out of ideas. Shouldn't bands be free to take whatever direction they choose?


Edited by DisgruntledPorcupine - March 23 2013 at 02:04
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Post Options Post Options   Quote brainstormer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2013 at 02:07
I'm the kind of person that never thinks that the problem is with "the younger generation."
I think there is a natural ornery aging process.  But the question is, where is the best
new music being produced?   In that sense, I hear a lot of cliche's in some of the newer prog
that isn't going in a direction like Yes and Genesis did in their own way, or pleasant
classical like ELP and others, and seems to be cliche in the way that other modern
rock is going, that is, its kind of dark, negative, depressing, kind of like watching a horror
movie only it's music.   You see this in a lot of prog metal.  To some people, you have to do that to
be creative, but that's really sophmoric. It's like these people are being fed by TV culture.
They should spend more time a a library. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2013 at 02:11
Originally posted by infandous

You know, most of what has been posted so far sounds more like pet peeves of the individual poster.  Things they don't like and are tired of hearing.  Is it still a cliche if most people love it?  Like the example of guitar solos.  They are the biggest actual cliche mentioned, yet most rock fans would be very disappointed if they were suddenly no longer used.  Personally, I'm not crazy about songs that DON'T have a guitar solo of some sort in them.

However, I think it's safe to say that the many variations of "apocalypse in 9/8" found in prog from the 80's until now, is definitely a cliche.  I still love the sound though, and usually don't mind bands doing their take on it.  


I don't know, there are two sides to this debate.  I love a good guitar solo but I don't like the pulling teeth variety anymore.  If you've heard one generic 80s metal guitar solo, you've heard nearly all.  Using a device because the audience liked it at one point of time and without conviction or an individualistic insight is cliched and gets pretty boring.  It's the same as using time sig changes because it's supposedly got to have them to be prog.   Genesis's time sig changes were beautiful, intuitive and challenged the boundaries of what was acceptable in rock and pop music.   On the other hand, you take a song like People Passing By (and I actually like PoS), it's so stop start it gets distracting.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote KingCrInuYasha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2013 at 02:28
Originally posted by DisgruntledPorcupine

Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha

Embracing new wave and world music upon running out of ideas from prog (no offense Peter Gabriel, King Crimson and Rush). 
I don't see how trying something new equates to running out of ideas. Shouldn't bands be free to take whatever direction they choose?


Yeah, that was kind of a stupid post. Sorry about that.
He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2013 at 03:29
Originally posted by brainstormer

I'm the kind of person that never thinks that the problem is with "the younger generation."
I think there is a natural ornery aging process.  But the question is, where is the best
new music being produced?   In that sense, I hear a lot of cliche's in some of the newer prog
that isn't going in a direction like Yes and Genesis did in their own way, or pleasant
classical like ELP and others, and seems to be cliche in the way that other modern
rock is going, that is, its kind of dark, negative, depressing, kind of like watching a horror
movie only it's music.   You see this in a lot of prog metal.  To some people, you have to do that to
be creative, but that's really sophmoric. It's like these people are being fed by TV culture.
They should spend more time a a library. 


interesting point

dark music is more important than cheerful music. Cheerful music is made by happy go lucky shallow peopleSmile
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rdtprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2013 at 03:58
Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha

Originally posted by DisgruntledPorcupine

Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha

Embracing new wave and world music upon running out of ideas from prog (no offense Peter Gabriel, King Crimson and Rush). 
I don't see how trying something new equates to running out of ideas. Shouldn't bands be free to take whatever direction they choose?


Yeah, that was kind of a stupid post. Sorry about that.


Rush have started to running out of ideas, the day they decided to jam in studios, and discover that they have good instincts to make music that is listenable, so they would take less time to make a album and less fun for us to listen.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote friso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2013 at 05:57
Singing the modern equivalent of doobie doobie doobie and expecting to make a philosophicial statement with impact.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote brainstormer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2013 at 09:01
Originally posted by richardh

Originally posted by brainstormer

I'm the kind of person that never thinks that the problem is with "the younger generation."
I think there is a natural ornery aging process.  But the question is, where is the best
new music being produced?   In that sense, I hear a lot of cliche's in some of the newer prog
that isn't going in a direction like Yes and Genesis did in their own way, or pleasant
classical like ELP and others, and seems to be cliche in the way that other modern
rock is going, that is, its kind of dark, negative, depressing, kind of like watching a horror
movie only it's music.   You see this in a lot of prog metal.  To some people, you have to do that to
be creative, but that's really sophmoric. It's like these people are being fed by TV culture.
They should spend more time a a library. 


interesting point

dark music is more important than cheerful music. Cheerful music is made by happy go lucky shallow peopleSmile

I guess Yes are just that then.  And all the other positive hippies.

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Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
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Post Options Post Options   Quote twosteves Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2013 at 23:26
Originally posted by cstack3

ummmm....rock musicians wearing capes, perhaps?  

I can't think of many rock idioms that employed the onstage cape as much as prog!  This is a nice one....Steve Howe, "Solos Tour," 14 August, 1976, Hawthorne Park, Illinois....



Wow--what a prog guitar god---that is more of a shawl than a cape---someone else int the band did the cape thing.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2013 at 03:41
Originally posted by brainstormer

Originally posted by richardh

Originally posted by brainstormer

I'm the kind of person that never thinks that the problem is with "the younger generation."
I think there is a natural ornery aging process.  But the question is, where is the best
new music being produced?   In that sense, I hear a lot of cliche's in some of the newer prog
that isn't going in a direction like Yes and Genesis did in their own way, or pleasant
classical like ELP and others, and seems to be cliche in the way that other modern
rock is going, that is, its kind of dark, negative, depressing, kind of like watching a horror
movie only it's music.   You see this in a lot of prog metal.  To some people, you have to do that to
be creative, but that's really sophmoric. It's like these people are being fed by TV culture.
They should spend more time a a library. 


interesting point

dark music is more important than cheerful music. Cheerful music is made by happy go lucky shallow peopleSmile

I guess Yes are just that then.  And all the other positive hippies.


Something else I've noticed that is that the more modern 'positive prog' often connects with religion ie Glass Hammer, The Flower Kings and Neal Morse are the closest to Yes in that respect. Anderson's spiritualism was a major part of Yes music although that expression was not overtly religious in the lyrics. Not sure what point I'm making but just a thought.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2013 at 04:23
I am not sure about Glass Hammer but both TFK and Neal Morse/Spocks Beard were also influenced by Kansas and that is where the religious bent probably comes from.  Kansas is often left out in the discussion on 'happy'/'optimistic' prog.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2013 at 04:25
I don't think happy music by itself is necessarily shallow though I know that idea is frequently tossed about in Western art generally.  But I too would find a near complete absence of pathos in the work of an artist rather strange and tough to take very seriously.  It is hard to not find anything at all in the human condition that evokes grief or anger.  
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