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Dream Theater wins March Metal Madness Tournament

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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Dream Theater wins March Metal Madness Tournament
    Posted: April 10 2013 at 09:11
I like much from DT and I don't like much from them either, but in any case I don't care much for public tournaments, it's my own musical taste I care for, not other's.
Images and Words is a great album, whether it's better or worse than others, I'm not going to discuss here, 'better' or 'worse' are absolute adjectives which fall short when discussing a lot of music.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Melomaniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 09:34
Originally posted by Gerinski

I like much from DT and I don't like much from them either, but in any case I don't care much for public tournaments, it's my own musical taste I care for, not other's.
Images and Words is a great album, whether it's better or worse than others, I'm not going to discuss here, 'better' or 'worse' are absolute adjectives which fall short when discussing a lot of music.
Clap
I totally concur with this entire statement !
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CPicard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 10:43
I still haven't understood: was this March Metal Madness "competition" some kind of vote organized on several internet sites, social networks, etc... or only on this Loudwire site?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 10:46
It was a public vote yes, but only for Afghan sailors.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AlexDOM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 10:46
AWESOME!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Melomaniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 10:49
Originally posted by Guldbamsen

It was a public vote yes, but only for Afghan sailors.
LOL
I actually laughed out loud at this !
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Metalmarsh89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 16:36
These things are not to be taken seriously. Example B.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/pictures/readers-poll-your-favorite-prog-rock-albums-of-all-time-20120725/1-dream-theater-metropolis-pt-2-scenes-from-a-memory-0257304#ixzz21ktIiOga

Note: While I do like this album, it's not the greatest prog album of all time.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 17:43
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by dtguitarfan


Add to that this little corruption:
How does one acquire the ability to give ratings that are weighted 20 times?  They are given the ability by the vote of the other people who already have the ability.  Think of it this way -
::rant::
Do you see my point?
Not that I care anymore - I've pretty much completely lost the bug that drove me to want to write reviews anyways.  But this frustration might have contributed to that and I don't understand how anyone thinks this is fair.
 
Oh, spare us the violin concerto, we're not falling for it. You're a Special Collaborator on the Metal Music Archives with all the rank and privilage that carries (erm, the same as here - duck all) - how they operate is exactly how we operate because 99% of the guys over there are also collabs over here - unless you are trying to tell us that MMA collabs have adopted dirty tricks and secret cabals that we don't know about. You have x20 weighting on MMA - quit moaning or quit.
 
Also, many of your reviews were cut'n'paste hash-jobs between the two sites - I fail to see how frustration on one site affects the unfettered access of another, so any lost bug for reviewing has little to do collab weighting.

First of all, I don't even want status here any more - I'm over that.  I'm merely criticizing a system that I don't think is right.

Second of all, let me tell you how "collaborator" status works on MMA - they're desperate.  They need help.  They'll take pretty much anyone.  Because of this, they get better variety.  On PA, this is not the case.  When I asked for reviewer status, and pointed to another site where I could show off my entire collection of ratings I was told that I was clearly an expert on Prog Metal, but here they want people who like all different kinds of Prog.  Here's my problem with that - I clearly like more than just Prog Metal for one thing, as I'm into lots of 70's prog as well, and have listened to a decent variety of other styles.  But lets say, just for the sake of argument, that there are some sub genres that just plain suck.  Because you're insisting here that the only people who get collab/reviewer status are people who like all styles, you're not really getting experts now, are you.  You're insisting on only getting people who have bad taste.

Third, your silly rule that a review on MMA should not be transfered over to a SISTER SITE - started by the SAME FREAKING GUY - is just plain stupid.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sukmytoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 17:44
In twenty years time I wonder what the thinking will be then. I love a great deal of prog rock music and have been entranced by the music for forty five years or so. To me, among the top albums of all time relating to prog would be Genesis - Foxtrot, Yes - Relayer, Black Sabbath - Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, Rush - 2112, Rainbow - Rainbow Rising, Uriah Heep - Demons and Wizards, Queensryche - Operation MIndcrime ....... and others but I'm not going to list them all here. The truth is that I do recognise Dream Theater as being up there with at least 2 albums. I would go so far as to say that I personally don't dispute either poll result in the slightest as I recognise DT as being easily amongst the very best bands that I have ever had the pleasure of hearing and they have impressed me the most with their releases. People who don't recognise the value of the top DT albums and who profess to hate them are welcome to their own opinions but to slight the band - and I've read here and elsewhere that some think that the music they release is trash - is not too bright for anyone claiming to understand music. Personally I dislike KIng Crimson however I would never be dumb enough to slate them as being useless or call their music trash - I listen to KC with a great deal of respect in fact, respect for the fact that although I don't like their music it has profound value to the music world and to those who adore their music. The same applies to Gentle Giant relating to my own preference in music. This post only really applies to those who troll anything relating to DT and put down words for the sake of putting down words for effect. I haven't seen the hate here for DT that I've seen in other posts here and frankly that suprises me as there are those who where at the mention the name Dream Theater go off like bulls presented with matador capes.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 17:46
Oh, I forgot, I had one more point to make - over on MMA, there was actually a discussion that pretty much had 100% agreement where all the collabs wanted to take away their 20X rating weighting.  Voluntarily.  We all thought it was stupid, and a 5x (for collabs who wrote a review) 3x (for regular reviews) 1x (for just rating) system might be closer to fair.  We thought this because we'd noticed that an album would be at #1 on a chart with 30 ratings or so and then one collab would have a chip on his shoulder and write a 1 star review and you'd never see the album anywhere near the chart ever again.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AlexDOM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 17:52
Originally posted by sukmytoe

I haven't seen the hate here for DT that I've seen in other posts here and frankly that suprises me as there are those who where at the mention the name Dream Theater go off like bulls presented with matador capes.

How can anyone ever ever ever ever ever ever hate The Dance of Eternity??????
Maybe someone can hate everything else they've written (which blows my mind), but certainly not TDOE.


Edited by AlexDOM - April 10 2013 at 17:52
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Triceratopsoil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 18:02
Originally posted by dtguitarfan

[Second of all, let me tell you how "collaborator" status works on MMA - they're desperate.  They need help.  They'll take pretty much anyone. 
 
Even Geoff!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote geneyesontle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 18:11
Cry Bad.
 
How can they win against these legends of metal. Dream Theater are just prog metal snobs who just want to show that they can play a million notes a second and that they can do ten minute songs. Progressive bands wanted to sound different. Dream Theater copy the progressive bands witha touch of metal. If you dislike my comment, that's okay. But that's just my opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 18:21
Originally posted by sukmytoe

In twenty years time I wonder what the thinking will be then. I love a great deal of prog rock music and have been entranced by the music for forty five years or so. To me, among the top albums of all time relating to prog would be Genesis - Foxtrot, Yes - Relayer, Black Sabbath - Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, Rush - 2112, Rainbow - Rainbow Rising, Uriah Heep - Demons and Wizards, Queensryche - Operation MIndcrime ....... and others but I'm not going to list them all here. The truth is that I do recognise Dream Theater as being up there with at least 2 albums. I would go so far as to say that I personally don't dispute either poll result in the slightest as I recognise DT as being easily amongst the very best bands that I have ever had the pleasure of hearing and they have impressed me the most with their releases. People who don't recognise the value of the top DT albums and who profess to hate them are welcome to their own opinions but to slight the band - and I've read here and elsewhere that some think that the music they release is trash - is not too bright for anyone claiming to understand music. Personally I dislike KIng Crimson however I would never be dumb enough to slate them as being useless or call their music trash - I listen to KC with a great deal of respect in fact, respect for the fact that although I don't like their music it has profound value to the music world and to those who adore their music. The same applies to Gentle Giant relating to my own preference in music. This post only really applies to those who troll anything relating to DT and put down words for the sake of putting down words for effect. I haven't seen the hate here for DT that I've seen in other posts here and frankly that suprises me as there are those who where at the mention the name Dream Theater go off like bulls presented with matador capes.
I've been here six years now and have been enjoying Dream Theater albums for over thirteen years, they are not my favourite Prog Metal band by quite a margin, but they are up there with the best of them. In all that time, apart from a very few rather narrowminded people who do not like Metal, let alone Prog Metal, the only posts I've seen regarding all the DT hate has been from people complaining about all the DT hate. The evidence it seems for all this assumed DT hate is that their albums are not riding at the top of a chart, when the reality is when you look at the top metal albums of all time DT have two albums in the top three and Opeth have two albums in the top six and Pain Of Salvation have two albums in the top ten - and all six of those albums are in the all-genre all-time top 100 ... and to me, as a metal fan of many years and a prog fan of many more, that sounds just about right.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 18:54
Originally posted by AlexDOM



Originally posted by sukmytoe

I haven't seen the hate here for DT that I've seen in other posts here and frankly that suprises me as there are those who where at the mention the name Dream Theater go off like bulls presented with matador capes.

How can anyone ever ever ever ever ever ever hate The Dance of Eternity??????
Maybe someone can hate everything else they've written (which blows my mind), but certainly not TDOE.



I actually don't particularly like "The Dance of Eternity". Since I don't like it so much, I haven't heard it for a while, and thus I don't remember it very well, so I'm not sure if I would say that I hate it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 18:59
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by sukmytoe

In twenty years time I wonder what the thinking will be then. I love a great deal of prog rock music and have been entranced by the music for forty five years or so. To me, among the top albums of all time relating to prog would be Genesis - Foxtrot, Yes - Relayer, Black Sabbath - Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, Rush - 2112, Rainbow - Rainbow Rising, Uriah Heep - Demons and Wizards, Queensryche - Operation MIndcrime ....... and others but I'm not going to list them all here. The truth is that I do recognise Dream Theater as being up there with at least 2 albums. I would go so far as to say that I personally don't dispute either poll result in the slightest as I recognise DT as being easily amongst the very best bands that I have ever had the pleasure of hearing and they have impressed me the most with their releases. People who don't recognise the value of the top DT albums and who profess to hate them are welcome to their own opinions but to slight the band - and I've read here and elsewhere that some think that the music they release is trash - is not too bright for anyone claiming to understand music. Personally I dislike KIng Crimson however I would never be dumb enough to slate them as being useless or call their music trash - I listen to KC with a great deal of respect in fact, respect for the fact that although I don't like their music it has profound value to the music world and to those who adore their music. The same applies to Gentle Giant relating to my own preference in music. This post only really applies to those who troll anything relating to DT and put down words for the sake of putting down words for effect. I haven't seen the hate here for DT that I've seen in other posts here and frankly that suprises me as there are those who where at the mention the name Dream Theater go off like bulls presented with matador capes.

I've been here six years now and have been enjoying Dream Theater albums for over thirteen years, they are not my favourite Prog Metal band by quite a margin, but they are up there with the best of them. In all that time, apart from a very few rather narrowminded people who do not like Metal, let alone Prog Metal, the only posts I've seen regarding all the DT hate has been from people complaining about all the DT hate. The evidence it seems for all this assumed DT hate is that their albums are not riding at the top of a chart, when the reality is when you look at the top metal albums of all time DT have two albums in the top three and Opeth have two albums in the top six and Pain Of Salvation have two albums in the top ten - and all six of those albums are in the all-genre all-time top 100 ... and to me, as a metal fan of many years and a prog fan of many more, that sounds just about right.


About DT not having albums riding at the top of the chart, I must say that they are actually among my very favourite bands, but... well, there's just about no album of them that I would consider a masterpice. They all have lesser songs that bring their albums down. However, I noticed a while ago that I actually have over 40 or 50 mins of most of their albums on my IPod (where I only put the songs that I really like a lot), so I would think that part of their problem is that they just fill their albums for the sake of using most of the minutes available. If they got to put only their best material they might have made only masterpieces... the thing is, how to choose which are the best songs? Very likely my favourite songs aren't your favourite songs and so on.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2013 at 01:45
Originally posted by dtguitarfan

First of all, I don't even want status here any more - I'm over that.  I'm merely criticizing a system that I don't think is right.

Second of all, let me tell you how "collaborator" status works on MMA - they're desperate.  They need help.  They'll take pretty much anyone.  Because of this, they get better variety.  On PA, this is not the case.  When I asked for reviewer status, and pointed to another site where I could show off my entire collection of ratings I was told that I was clearly an expert on Prog Metal, but here they want people who like all different kinds of Prog.  Here's my problem with that - I clearly like more than just Prog Metal for one thing, as I'm into lots of 70's prog as well, and have listened to a decent variety of other styles.  But lets say, just for the sake of argument, that there are some sub genres that just plain suck.  Because you're insisting here that the only people who get collab/reviewer status are people who like all styles, you're not really getting experts now, are you.  You're insisting on only getting people who have bad taste.

Third, your silly rule that a review on MMA should not be transfered over to a SISTER SITE - started by the SAME FREAKING GUY - is just plain stupid.
*sigh*
 
When the two sites carry the same reviews and the same biographies and is staffed by people who are collaborators on both sites do you really have to look very far to see why the newer site is desperate and in need of help? That's what's stupid, plain or fancy with curlicues of filigree and lace and ornate decoration of inlay and fine gold.
 
So not withstanding the observation that posting the same review on both sites can only ever be detrimental to the smaller site, it is also cheating, (like passing an old car off as new), which makes it a tad dishonest and not playing fair - and that too is just about as stupid as it gets.
 
And you bitch and moan and complain about how badly Dream Theater gets treated on a Progressive Rock review site and boast and pout whenever they get some accolade elsewhere - yet when you look at the Top 50 albums on Metal Music Archives they are nowhere to be seen and have only one album in the Top 100. Somewhat ironic that they fair better on a site populated by reviewers of such bad taste - that's 24ct stupid.
 
 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2013 at 05:41
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by dtguitarfan

First of all, I don't even want status here any more - I'm over that.  I'm merely criticizing a system that I don't think is right.

Second of all, let me tell you how "collaborator" status works on MMA - they're desperate.  They need help.  They'll take pretty much anyone.  Because of this, they get better variety.  On PA, this is not the case.  When I asked for reviewer status, and pointed to another site where I could show off my entire collection of ratings I was told that I was clearly an expert on Prog Metal, but here they want people who like all different kinds of Prog.  Here's my problem with that - I clearly like more than just Prog Metal for one thing, as I'm into lots of 70's prog as well, and have listened to a decent variety of other styles.  But lets say, just for the sake of argument, that there are some sub genres that just plain suck.  Because you're insisting here that the only people who get collab/reviewer status are people who like all styles, you're not really getting experts now, are you.  You're insisting on only getting people who have bad taste.

Third, your silly rule that a review on MMA should not be transfered over to a SISTER SITE - started by the SAME FREAKING GUY - is just plain stupid.
*sigh*
 
When the two sites carry the same reviews and the same biographies and is staffed by people who are collaborators on both sites do you really have to look very far to see why the newer site is desperate and in need of help? That's what's stupid, plain or fancy with curlicues of filigree and lace and ornate decoration of inlay and fine gold.
 
So not withstanding the observation that posting the same review on both sites can only ever be detrimental to the smaller site, it is also cheating, (like passing an old car off as new), which makes it a tad dishonest and not playing fair - and that too is just about as stupid as it gets.

It's common practice, all over the internet, Dean.  My favorite conservative (one of the few conservatives these days whose opinion I respect any more), David Frum, writes for a website called the Daily Beast.  But often I'll see articles on the Daily Beast by him that originally came from another site, such as CNN.  It's common practice - deal with it.
 
Originally posted by Dean


And you bitch and moan and complain about how badly Dream Theater gets treated on a Progressive Rock review site and boast and pout whenever they get some accolade elsewhere - yet when you look at the Top 50 albums on Metal Music Archives they are nowhere to be seen and have only one album in the Top 100. Somewhat ironic that they fair better on a site populated by reviewers of such bad taste - that's 24ct stupid.
 
Yeah, why is that, Dean?  It's the 20x rating thing - something the collaborators collectively said "yes, we want to change" and yet it hasn't, because we have no control.  It's a bad system, and it's unfair, and you know it - you just don't want to admit it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2013 at 06:24
Originally posted by dtguitarfan

Yeah, why is that, Dean?  It's the 20x rating thing - something the collaborators collectively said "yes, we want to change" and yet it hasn't, because we have no control.  It's a bad system, and it's unfair, and you know it - you just don't want to admit it.
It's not a bad system, it is fairer than allowing biploar rating-only's to overrun the system, and I know both those things and freely admit it.
 
I frequently recompute the average rartings for individual albums to see the effects that these bipolar ratings-only idiots would have on an average rating and it is depressing - no album is immune from their abuse and all suffer in varying degrees, some more than others, and yes, it is the high-profile bands that suffer the most.
 
Since I have to do this long-hand I cannot do it for all albums so I cannot predict the effect that removing the weighting system would have on the charts (although you do seem to be able to make these predictions based on no empirical evidence whatsoever, I am not gifted with that prescience). The individual average rating for all albums will change, I cannot predict in which way they would change - it would depend on whether the bipolar-ratings were predominately 1-star or predominately 5-star for each, some wil go up, some will go down and some will remain more or less the same.
 
I would only support the scrapping of the weighting system if we would abolish rating-only at the same time. If we cannot scrap rating-only the we should compute two averages and have two charts.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote sleeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2013 at 07:30
I only have to take 1 look at dtguitarfans posts here to see why the 20x weighting would be unnecessary over on MMA, by his own admission it's a much smaller site and so much less likely to be subject to the same sort of rating idiocy that PA gets.

You might not like the weighting system here, but it took years of tinkering with it to get to a point where it hilights the contributions of those reveiwers that have clearly shown a degree of knowledge and the ability to get it across (dtguitarfan might have a wide breadth of knowledge on Prog, but I've looked through your list of reviews and the vast majrity of them are for Prog Metal and a considerable number of them are 5 star ratings, and the quality of the reviews can be quite variable, depending on how much you like the album) without letting asses of fanboy and hater fools wildely skew the ratings, which in the end arent as important as the review itself.
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