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The UFO Phenomenon

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dr wu23 View Drop Down
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    Posted: April 21 2013 at 20:40
I've been interested in the UFO Phenomenon for over 30 years and while posting in the 'what have you read lately ' thread I noticed another member mentioned the ufo phenom so I  thought I would start a thread about the enigma.
The phenom covers several aspects including but not limited to the following: day and night sightings of ufos, close encounters with ufos as well as 'aliens', and the so-called abduction phenomenon. These have been classified as CE (close encounters) 1,2,3, and 4. There are also paranormal events often associated with the enigma which makes it even more interesting in some cases that are usually called 'high strangeness' cases.
Many books have been written over the last 50 years covering all of the various better known cases, events,  and theories which include the ETH-extraterrestrial hypothesis, the  EDH-extradimensional hypothesis, and the PSH-the psychosocial hypothesis. There are of course many books  on famous cases like the Roswell event, the Rendlesham-Bentwaters events,  the Walton abduction and the Hill abduction. There are also several good articles at Wiki and at various online web sites for those who want more background.
I suspect  that those who wish to get into this probably have a working knowledge of the subject already but if anyone wants me to point them to some books or web sites just give me a heads up.
 
I think the best place to start is for those who want to disucss this to say right up front what their position or belief is about the phenom. For me I'll say that the UFO phenom for me is a legitimate phenom that has been experienced worldwide for a very long time . I believe, as does Dr J Vallee who's ideas I tend to agree with, that the phenom has been with mankind for millenia in one form or another . Whatever is behind what we call the UFO enigma is not new and only a modern phenom but something that has been appearing to humans for thousands of years .
Some think it's space aliens/ET-the ETH, some think it's a paranormal/occult issue or interdimensional beings-the EDH, while others think it's merely a figment of human imagination, folklore, mythology, and psychological problems-the PSH.
 
What do you think?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2013 at 20:48
My position is probably of the skeptic.  I absolutely believe there is life on other planets.  Far too many galaxies, stars and therefore, planets for us to be alone in the universe.  However, unless Einstein was completely wrong or things like warp drive are possible, the distances seem far too great for us to be experiencing visitations from other planets.  Further, I really doubt we have much to offer a species that does have such capabilities, so why would they bother coming here if they were advanced enough to travel interstellar distances?  Strictly for comedic value? 

Finally, ever notice that these aliens never actually visit leading scientists, world leaders or artists?  No, they always visit some hick out in a cornfield. 

That said, I won't rule it out 100%, and I do find UFO stories fascinating and will also admit that some of them do leave a lot to be explained.  And mere psychological or meteorological explanations don't really work. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2013 at 21:22
I've always been interested but more of a sci fi hobby for fun, I don't actually believe in it.

As Doc said I'm quite sure there's some type of life in the universe (though who knows what level of advancement) but yeah...unless they found a way to break the speed of light rule I don't think they've been here.
UFOs are always something else, and always at night when we can't see quite right, ya know?

Was once rudely awoken by this white light filling my room and some crazy ass looking thing out the window!
After 2 seconds of adjusting it was a helicopter....circling around town and at that moment just had its search light pointed in my room. If ya were from a distance though it'd be freaky as hell because it was some hovering thing that moved strangely and took off quickly.

There was one time I saw a strange sight but I'm 100% sure it was a military aircraft (esp since its direction was heading towards the AFB) but at 4 am, when its dark and you're not fully conscious these things are scary!


Abduction stories fascinated me more when I was young but again, there's always very logical explanations.
Getting older sucks : (


Edited by JJLehto - April 21 2013 at 21:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote presdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2013 at 21:22
I experienced a daytime sighting of what looked like a spacecraft around 23 years ago. It had a conical top and a tire tube like bottom, and was gold in color. It moved horizontally and with no sound. It moved behind a cloud, and that was it. (i had to leave and go visit someone, so left it at that)
        Now, what i saw could have been a real craft from another world, or it could have been a practical joke concocted to fool me. I am inclined to think the latter.
        I feel it is possible that aliens have visited us in the past, or will in the future, but i don't know for certain, so i sit on the fence about this.
          Interesting that just last nite, i saw the Fire In The Sky movie.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2013 at 21:24
I've been looking into it for many years, started when I was about nine back when "UFO research" was mainly a few bad books with fuzzy pictures and dubious stories.   The one legit and intelligent book was The Interrupted Journey which chronicles the Hills' story as drawn-out by their psychologist.   Finally in the late 80s Whitley Strieber began publishing his recollections.   Strieber is a brilliant writer and was able to relay the experience in thoughtful and vivid terms.   I'm not too keen on much of the other mainstream work by Bud Hopkins and others, it seems to have an agenda attached.

As far as what I believe about sentient aliens having visited Earth, I don't believe anything, which is to say it is a mystery.   As far as "U.F.O.s" go, that is a different matter; there is no doubt someone, probably on Earth, is experimenting with all number of airborne craft.   You wouldn't have so many credible witnesses claiming sightings and the amount of credible (non-hoaxed) video evidence.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2013 at 21:30
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

My position is probably of the skeptic. I absolutely believe there is life on other planets. Far too many galaxies, stars and therefore, planets for us to be alone in the universe. However, unless Einstein was completely wrong or things like warp drive are possible, the distances seem far too great for us to be experiencing visitations from other planets. Further, I really doubt we have much to offer a species that does have such capabilities, so why would they bother coming here if they were advanced enough to travel interstellar distances? Strictly for comedic value?

Finally, ever notice that these aliens never actually visit leading scientists, world leaders or artists? No, they always visit some hick out in a cornfield. 

^ I pretty much agree with Herr Doktor. Thumbs Up

The distances that would need to be traversed are MUCH too vast, and if aliens are visiting here, their supposed behavior up to now has been nonsensical.

I am inclined to look for the answers in human psychology -- that, and good old lying/lust for fame. (Always try is ascertain if any money is being made by those with a story to sell.)

Only the ultra-religious get "possessed," only the religious folk of the middle ages saw angels in the sky. (Old testament prophets seeing talking burning bushes and hearing "god" talk to them would be quickly identified as schizophrenic today.)

These days, in a technological age, people "see" extraterrestrial machines and their pilots in the sky. People seem to see what they want and/or expect to see. (That's not to say that people don't sometimes see things that they cannot immediately explain)


Edited by Peter - April 21 2013 at 21:36
Let the monkey drive.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2013 at 21:42
Originally posted by Peter Peter wrote:

People seem to see what they want and/or expect to see. (That's not to say that people don't sometimes see things that they cannot immediately explain)


That is pretty much 100% right.
There's a reason that certain people always get abducted, and the more intense people are into the UFO culture they see and experience more crazy things.

Also most abductions are fuzzy and dream like and "details" emerge later after being coaxed. Not that it isn't sincere what they think they recall. Also that some universal traits tend to be very similar to stories and movies...and how different regions of the world  have seen different types of aliens that happened to be based off the types of sci fi they had. etc etc etc

Basically, it's dark, we're tired, we have tons of sub conscious ideas floating around our heads, and the more you want to believe you will. As well as other possible ideas like the DMT theory.

I will say though, IF they have found a way to beat the speed of light limit, have shape shifting physical machines and all this crazy stuff....we gotta pray they are friendly!! LOL With technology like that, if they wanna kill us we have no slight hope of stopping em.



Edited by JJLehto - April 21 2013 at 21:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheGazzardian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2013 at 21:50
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

My position is probably of the skeptic.  I absolutely believe there is life on other planets.  Far too many galaxies, stars and therefore, planets for us to be alone in the universe.  However, unless Einstein was completely wrong or things like warp drive are possible, the distances seem far too great for us to be experiencing visitations from other planets.  Further, I really doubt we have much to offer a species that does have such capabilities, so why would they bother coming here if they were advanced enough to travel interstellar distances?  Strictly for comedic value? 

Finally, ever notice that these aliens never actually visit leading scientists, world leaders or artists?  No, they always visit some hick out in a cornfield. 

That said, I won't rule it out 100%, and I do find UFO stories fascinating and will also admit that some of them do leave a lot to be explained.  And mere psychological or meteorological explanations don't really work. 

Apparently there is theoretical science that is making theoretical advancements. I'm not enough of a scientist to know how valid this is but I saw it the other day and thought it was neat: http://io9.com/5963263/how-nasa-will-build-its-very-first-warp-drive
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2013 at 21:55
 ^ when I watch the old ST series I'm more impressed at how accurate their theoretical physics and space science was-- generally much better than Star Wars.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2013 at 00:43
Interesting subject.

The Rendlesham forest incident in the UK in 1980 is fascinating, and the testimony of the witnesses seems quite reliable and consistent.

Please watch! :-)

Rendlesham forest

Edited by Blacksword - April 22 2013 at 00:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2013 at 05:21
There is a good probability that somewhere in the Universe there exists life that is not of this Earth. The chances of that life being smarter than an amoeba is quite probable. For it to be at our stage of intellectual evolution or higher is less probable. If it is has surpassed our level of technical development is thus fairly improbably. Of it being capable of interstellar space flight is even more improbably. The chances of it finding us on a tiny wet planet orbiting a nondescript star in the outer suburbs of one galaxy out of billions of galaxies in the vastness of space is highly improbable.
 
That's not scepticism, that's just being rational.
 
All UFO sightings can be (and have been) explained by fully understandable natural explanations not requiring visitors from other worlds - Unidentified does not mean Unexplained.
 
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2013 at 07:20
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:



There is a good probability that somewhere in the Universe there exists life that is not of this Earth. The chances of that life being smarter than an amoeba is quite probable. For it to be at our stage of intellectual evolution or higher is less probable. If it is has surpassed our level of technical development is thus fairly improbably. Of it being capable of interstellar space flight is even more improbably. The chances of it finding us on a tiny wet planet orbiting a nondescript star in the outer suburbs of one galaxy out of billions of galaxies in the vastness of space is highly improbable.
 
That's not scepticism, that's just being rational.
 
All UFO sightings can be (and have been) explained by fully understandable natural explanations not requiring visitors from other worlds - Unidentified does not mean Unexplained.
 
 


What was the explanation for the Rendlesham Forest incident? It appears to have been left unexplained and sigificantly covered up from what I can gather. Then I suppose it depends who you ask.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2013 at 07:58
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:



There is a good probability that somewhere in the Universe there exists life that is not of this Earth. The chances of that life being smarter than an amoeba is quite probable. For it to be at our stage of intellectual evolution or higher is less probable. If it is has surpassed our level of technical development is thus fairly improbably. Of it being capable of interstellar space flight is even more improbably. The chances of it finding us on a tiny wet planet orbiting a nondescript star in the outer suburbs of one galaxy out of billions of galaxies in the vastness of space is highly improbable.
 
That's not scepticism, that's just being rational.
 
All UFO sightings can be (and have been) explained by fully understandable natural explanations not requiring visitors from other worlds - Unidentified does not mean Unexplained.
 
 


What was the explanation for the Rendlesham Forest incident? It appears to have been left unexplained and sigificantly covered up from what I can gather. Then I suppose it depends who you ask.
Precisely. Not looking too closely into this (and I haven't the time to see a 1˝hr documentary during working hours):Why ignore the Orford Ness lighthouse (which apparently can be seen from the forest) rotating on a 5 second period, which just happens to be the same time interval of the appearance/disappearance of the light described on the tape - why do none of the eyewitnesses mention seeing two lights (the UFO and the lighthouse)? [for example]
 
Nighttime disorientation and group hysteria can account for quite a lot. The eyewitness accounts do not corroborate each other and seem to be somewhat unreliable,  I'm inclined to discount any testimony given under hypnosis (whether you believe hypnosis induced statements or not, I don't). Failure of the authorities to take it seriously (for example the local police) does not constitute a cover-up or conspiracy. Much of the after the event analysis of the site shows strong indications of confirmation bias - they saw what they wanted to see - for example does this look like a mark made by an axe or a burn made by a UFO to you?
 
 
Just because people chose to ignore feasible (ie non-ET) explanations it does not mean that the feasible explanations are false. Once a plausible non-extraterrestrial explanation exists the onus is on the "believer" to prove his explanation, not ignore the "sceptic" and his plausible explanation.


Edited by Dean - April 22 2013 at 09:13


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArturdeLara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2013 at 08:11
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I've always been interested but more of a sci fi hobby for fun, I don't actually believe in it.

As Doc said I'm quite sure there's some type of life in the universe (though who knows what level of advancement) but yeah...unless they found a way to break the speed of light rule I don't think they've been here.
UFOs are always something else, and always at night when we can't see quite right, ya know?

Was once rudely awoken by this white light filling my room and some crazy ass looking thing out the window!
After 2 seconds of adjusting it was a helicopter....circling around town and at that moment just had its search light pointed in my room. If ya were from a distance though it'd be freaky as hell because it was some hovering thing that moved strangely and took off quickly.

There was one time I saw a strange sight but I'm 100% sure it was a military aircraft (esp since its direction was heading towards the AFB) but at 4 am, when its dark and you're not fully conscious these things are scary!


Abduction stories fascinated me more when I was young but again, there's always very logical explanations.
Getting older sucks : (

There are dozens, if not hundreds, of ufo cases which cannot be explained in any conventional means. Of course there are many hoaxes and misidentifications but they don't explain all sightings (Rendlesham forest, Phoenix lights and so many others are still unexplained). The truth is that ufos are a real phenomena (whatever their origin may be) that deserve proper scientific study and should not be treated as a pseudoscience by the mainstream scientific community.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2013 at 08:52
Utter bul*t, sorry. If aliens would have visited us (which is rather unlikely but I will not say impossible) they would want us either to know or not to know.
How funny that they visit us precisely in ways where just some rather unreliable people and in unconfirmable circumstances do experience the visit, but in no instance they allow uncontroversial experience by other people or instruments.
Why would they do that? Do they want us to know that they exist or not? are they just so incompetent that they don't want us to know but they fail at hiding? Are they here just to play a game of hide and seek and have a laugh at us?

p.s. I guess that 'unconfirmable' is not a proper English word, sorry but I can't come up with one right out of my head. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2013 at 09:03
Originally posted by ArturdeLara ArturdeLara wrote:


There are dozens, if not hundreds, of ufo cases which cannot be explained in any conventional means. Of course there are many hoaxes and misidentifications but they don't explain all sightings (Rendlesham forest, Phoenix lights and so many others are still unexplained). The truth is that ufos are a real phenomena (whatever their origin may be) that deserve proper scientific study and should not be treated as a pseudoscience by the mainstream scientific community.
Really? All these have been explained - if you chose to ignore the explanations that is doesn't change anything.
 
The human eye, especially at night, is very poor at judging distance of a single point of light that has no other reference points to give any indication of size or speed. An aircraft light, a planet such as Jupiter and a distant star all look the same size to us as we see them in the night sky - we cannot tell just by looking at a single point of light in the sky whether it is small or large, close or very far away. Even if it is moving we cannot be sure whether it is close and moving slowly or far away and moving very fast, for example the International Space Station takes 4 minutes to cross the visible region of sky compared to an aircraft that can do it in half that time and a bird in less time than that - the bird is very close and flying at 40mph (63km/h), the aircraft is in the atmosphere and is travelling at 400mph (630km/h) whereas the ISS is far away and travelling at 17,239mph (27,743km/h).
 
This means that eyewitness accounts can be misleading and inaccurate, for example in the Rendlesham Forest event a high-speed meteor or Russian spy satellite falling into the North Sea 200-300 miles away can look like a slow-speed "UFO" crashing into a nearby forest. And in the 1st Phoenix Lights event a fast moving formation of high-altitude aircraft can look like a slow moving "UFO" flying at lower altitude and in the 2nd event a very slow falling string of (parachute) flares can look like a faster moving formation of "UFO"s flying into the distance.
 
 
If you ignore these explanations then you have not achieved anything and certainly the mainstream scientific community will rightfully dismiss this as pseudoscience.


Edited by Dean - April 22 2013 at 09:04


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2013 at 09:58
A good mix of answers..some pro, some con , and some neutral.
I'm curious as to how everyone has come to their own positions. Have you read articles, books, online web sites...or are you forming an opinion based on cultural information via the media?
I recommend these books to get a good overall picture of the enigma:
The UFO Experience by Dr J Allen Hynek
Dimensions by Dr J Vallee
UFO's And The National Security State by R Dolan.
Abduction:Human Encounters with Aliens-Dr John Mack
While there are many books on ufos and the later abduction 'syndrome' , I found these to be thorough, well written, and fair minded.
 
As to a few comments above about alien motivations....imo it's impossible to say why a truly alien species would want to visit earth or what their agenda might be. One can certainly speculate and the ufo arena is full of that.But if we had the technology I have no doubt we would be buzzing around the galaxy checking out the other residents also.
Regarding the tech itself, again it's impossible to say for certain how advanced such beings could be. They could easily be 100,000 years or more ahead of us (or even a million years) and have discovered laws of physics new to us or learned how to bend them.
I don't necessarily accept the ETH (though I have no doubt there are sentient races out there.)....but imo 'something' is interacting with mankind and has for a very long time. For me the question is what does it truly represent?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2013 at 10:35
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

A good mix of answers..some pro, some con , and some neutral.
I'm curious as to how everyone has come to their own positions. Have you read articles, books, online web sites...or are you forming an opinion based on cultural information via the media?
I recommend these books to get a good overall picture of the enigma:
The UFO Experience by Dr J Allen Hynek
Dimensions by Dr J Vallee
UFO's And The National Security State by R Dolan.
Abduction:Human Encounters with Aliens-Dr John Mack
While there are many books on ufos and the later abduction 'syndrome' , I found these to be thorough, well written, and fair minded.
 
As to a few comments above about alien motivations....imo it's impossible to say why a truly alien species would want to visit earth or what their agenda might be. One can certainly speculate and the ufo arena is full of that.But if we had the technology I have no doubt we would be buzzing around the galaxy checking out the other residents also.
Regarding the tech itself, again it's impossible to say for certain how advanced such beings could be. They could easily be 100,000 years or more ahead of us (or even a million years) and have discovered laws of physics new to us or learned how to bend them.
I don't necessarily accept the ETH (though I have no doubt there are sentient races out there.)....but imo 'something' is interacting with mankind and has for a very long time. For me the question is what does it truly represent?
Can I ask you, do you want to believe?
 
The glib answer is No One Knows - but when there is a plausible answer within what is possible and an implausible one requiring what is impossible then the onus is on the non-sceptic to demonstrate that the implausible is plausible and the impossible is possible for it to be more feasible than the plausible answer.
 
No one has seriously commented on "alien" motivation - all the comments on that topic have been derisive, flippant and dismissive.
 
And... "Laws of physics new to us" won't change how stuff works, that's simply a poor understanding of how physics works.


Edited by Dean - April 23 2013 at 06:53


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vibrationbaby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2013 at 10:42
It's funny they have perfected  trans-dimensional travel but have to abduct us in order to perform medical experiments in order to understand how we proliferate our species.
 Until the mothership lands on the lawn of the Whitehouse and alittle green man emerges and demands " take me to your leader " I'm sorry kids : NO ALIENS.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2013 at 11:12
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

 I'm curious as to how everyone has come to their own positions. Have you read articles, books, online web sites...or are you forming an opinion based on cultural information via the media?
I recommend these books to get a good overall picture of the enigma:
There are plenty of books and sites about irrational subjects, astrology, the new testament, life spontaneous generation, levitation, telekinesis, devil possession or whatever. The existence of books on a subject proves nothing.
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