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TeleStrat View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2015 at 21:03
Originally posted by Argonaught Argonaught wrote:

^ I hope that any hypothetical alien race with interstellar travel technology would be so advanced that there would be no need for them to loot and enslave us. Unless they do such things for fun. 

As for our own space tech, well, I agree with you completely. We simply do not have means of propulsion, suitable for human interplanetary travel. I'd argue that a reed raft or a dug-out canoe is better suited for sailing around the world than any human spacecraft for traveling to Mars.       
Look what happened in our world when explorers discovered races of people that were considerably less advanced.
As far as our space exploration is concerned, if there is no possibility of discovering something like warp speed sometime in the future then we are destined to stay in our own backyard, so to speak.
I think the key to deep space travel may be in worm holes that connect to other parts of the universe.
(but, then again, I've been awake since 3:00 am this morning so I may say anything).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2015 at 23:43
I have often wondered what would happen if an alien visitation was confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Regardless of whether it was a more recent visit or evidence of one a million years ago (suppose a crashed alien spacecraft was discovered in a melting glacier - thank you global warming) the impact on society would have to be overwhelming.
What would happen in the religious communities since, as far as I know, most do not believe in the possibility of life on other planets? In fact, many Christians I know (have known) get offended if you even mention aliens.
And then there are various wacko groups around the world and who knows how they would react. Years back when the comet was visible I recall a group in Southern California (wearing purple tennis shoes no less) committing mass suicide. They believed that there was an alien spacecraft in the comet's tail and their suicide would somehow transport them aboard the craft.
Would groups of crazies roam the streets like looters do after a natural disaster?
And finally, what would governments around the world do since their biggest fear is to lose control of their people. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2015 at 08:42
Originally posted by TeleStrat TeleStrat wrote:

I have often wondered what would happen if an alien visitation was confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Regardless of whether it was a more recent visit or evidence of one a million years ago (suppose a crashed alien spacecraft was discovered in a melting glacier - thank you global warming) the impact on society would have to be overwhelming.
What would happen in the religious communities since, as far as I know, most do not believe in the possibility of life on other planets? In fact, many Christians I know (have known) get offended if you even mention aliens.
And then there are various wacko groups around the world and who knows how they would react. Years back when the comet was visible I recall a group in Southern California (wearing purple tennis shoes no less) committing mass suicide. They believed that there was an alien spacecraft in the comet's tail and their suicide would somehow transport them aboard the craft.
Would groups of crazies roam the streets like looters do after a natural disaster?
And finally, what would governments around the world do since their biggest fear is to lose control of their people. 


Yeah the crazies would all come out I reckon. Beardy wierdos, with bad personal hygeine and personality disporders. The impact on our societies could indeed be huge, that's why I've always believed that if there was any way to cover up a visitation rather than share the momentus news with the masses, the authorities would want to keep it on the down low.

Can you imagine the impact if visitors from another world came here cklaiming to be our creators and showed us blueprints of the planets initial designs? Religion would fall apart. We'd all go to pieces and mankind would collectively vanish up it's own hole. See my posts in the 'deep thinking' thread...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2015 at 08:59
I have purple tennis shoes.
 
I don't believe that ETs have been here - or are capable of doing so
 
I think there has to be some forms of life out there somewhere but I don't believe anyone has popped in yet.
"I know one thing: that I know nothing"

- SpongeBob Socrates
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2015 at 10:05
I agree with you Blacksword about the government keeping something like that a secret. 
If there was such a place as Area 51 and if there were three alien bodies discovered at a crash site the government would almost have to keep it a secret for reasons stated above.
In a situation like that people cannot be trusted to act reasonably or responsibly. I'm sorry, they just can't.

By the way Walton Street, my favorite tennis shoes are my Chuck Taylor All Stars high tops in camouflage. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2015 at 10:19

i have 30 pairs of converse, several different colours ..it's all I've worn since i was a little kid

(some of them in the past were not brand name but they were always sneakers)
"I know one thing: that I know nothing"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2015 at 10:33
Originally posted by TeleStrat TeleStrat wrote:

I agree with you Blacksword about the government keeping something like that a secret. 
If there was such a place as Area 51 and if there were three alien bodies discovered at a crash site the government would almost have to keep it a secret for reasons stated above.
In a situation like that people cannot be trusted to act reasonably or responsibly. I'm sorry, they just can't.

By the way Walton Street, my favorite tennis shoes are my Chuck Taylor All Stars high tops in camouflage. 


I think Area 51 is real enough. The bit about the dead aliens I'm sure is non sense. Probably just a test centre for new aviation technology.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2015 at 12:56
Originally posted by Walton Street Walton Street wrote:

i have 30 pairs of converse, several different colours ..it's all I've worn since i was a little kid

(some of them in the past were not brand name but they were always sneakers)
Wow...when you find something you like, you stick with it.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2015 at 13:20
Originally posted by TeleStrat TeleStrat wrote:

Originally posted by Walton Street Walton Street wrote:

i have 30 pairs of converse, several different colours ..it's all I've worn since i was a little kid

(some of them in the past were not brand name but they were always sneakers)
Wow...when you find something you like, you stick with it.

 
 
that could be on my tombstone
"I know one thing: that I know nothing"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2015 at 13:22
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by TeleStrat TeleStrat wrote:

I agree with you Blacksword about the government keeping something like that a secret. 
If there was such a place as Area 51 and if there were three alien bodies discovered at a crash site the government would almost have to keep it a secret for reasons stated above.
In a situation like that people cannot be trusted to act reasonably or responsibly. I'm sorry, they just can't.

By the way Walton Street, my favorite tennis shoes are my Chuck Taylor All Stars high tops in camouflage. 


I think Area 51 is real enough. The bit about the dead aliens I'm sure is non sense. Probably just a test centre for new aviation technology.
The aviation test center theory is certainly a believable one and would explain the secrecy. 
I have no idea how the dead alien story got started but it could probably be traced back to the tinfoil hat people.
The fact remains that if any government had any kind of proof at all it is best that they keep it a secret for the
social impact reasons that we've discussed.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2015 at 17:23
Whichever way you slice it interstellar travel is a no-no. 

At subluminal speeds the only viable methods of travel are multi-generation ark-ships, which sound great in theory, but would not be viable in practice due to the time these vessels will take to cross the vast distances between solar systems. They would simply wear out before they had completed the journey and anything needed to maintain, repair and/or rebuild these ships would have to be brought with them since there is nowhere to stop along the way to gather raw materials or make repairs. If you are travelling the 37,842,113,600,000km (i.e., 4ly) from a planet in one solar system to a planet in the neighbouring solar system then there is nothing in the space between them to stop at. 

If the ship is travelling at say 1 million km per hour then that is a 4,320 year journey - in this time on earth we have gone from building pyramids to sending probes to the outer solar system.

So another thing to consider is whether the lifeform that arrived at the destination would bear any resemblance to the one that embarked on the voyage. Not just sociologically, but if the speeds are slower than 1 million km/hr (which is quite probably) then also biologically. After a hundred thousand years in space, the species of "alien" that reached Earth would not be representative of the technologically-advanced lifeform that built and launched the arc-ships. There is also their psychological state to think about - after living for generations in a confined environment within a limited gene-pool they'd be quite insane by any standard you care to apply.

All that aside, if they found Earth to be habitable to their physiology then you can pretty much guarantee that their only thought would be of colonisation because for them it was a one-way trip and the home-world would be a distant mythological legend. They would not see us as the native population but as a planet-wide infestation in much the same way we regard roaches and termites in domestic dwellings. 

FTL travel, whether by wormhole or warping spacetime, is a science fiction "get-out-of-jail" free card that tends to collapse under even moderate scientific scrutiny, nothing would survive the energies involved. The vessel is part of the space being warped or bent or distorted so it too will be warped or bent or distorted so the concept of travelling through it is as much a fictional fantasy as travelling to another world through a looking glass or the back of a wardrobe. You can travel through a black hole, wormhole or space warp in much the same way as a camel can pass through the eye of a needle - you just need a giant blender and a huge syringe, and then a lot of time, patience and luck in piecing together what arrived on the other side as a fully functional camel.


Edited by Dean - January 28 2015 at 17:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2015 at 17:32
Moya has little problem with starburstWink

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2015 at 17:36
That's Leviathans for you. LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2015 at 18:09
Indeed.  Now, she must rest. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2015 at 18:41
If earthlings have to rely on 'real time travel' to explore space then we may as well just stay home and spend the billions (or trillions) of dollars on something more important.
Without any major discoveries in alternative forms of travel (like worm holes, time warps or even warp drive) we're not going anywhere.
Why are we going anyway? What do we hope to find? 
Our galaxy has a few hundred billion stars and planets and who knows how many galaxies there are in the universe?
What were we thinking when we decided to explore space?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2015 at 18:45
[QUOTE=Dean]Whichever way you slice it interstellar travel is a no-no [/QUOTE] 

And, as we all well know, we have no adequate means of propulsion to even go to the likes of Mars and back. All we have been able to use is the reactive force, generated by expelling some matter from the stern of a (space)ship, whether it be a chemical rocket or an ion thruster. 

 


Edited by Argonaught - January 28 2015 at 18:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2015 at 19:51
Originally posted by TeleStrat TeleStrat wrote:

If earthlings have to rely on 'real time travel' to explore space then we may as well just stay home and spend the billions (or trillions) of dollars on something more important.
Without any major discoveries in alternative forms of travel (like worm holes, time warps or even warp drive) we're not going anywhere.
Why are we going anyway? What do we hope to find? 
Our galaxy has a few hundred billion stars and planets and who knows how many galaxies there are in the universe?
What were we thinking when we decided to explore space?
We cannot discover what is not there to be discovered. 

Ignoring for a moment everything I have said about the practical impossibility of FTL (inc theoretical wormholes, fictional time warps and warp-drives). 

If interstellar travel is measured in thousands of years then inter-galaxy travel is measured in millions of years. The nearest galaxy to our own is 28,000ly away, (i.e., 264,900,000,000,000,000km), so even at light-speed it would take 28,000 years to get there (at 1x light-speed it would take 2.1 million years to reach Andromeda) so once we start talking about visiting other galaxies in the Universe then even FTL travel becomes problematic to a short-lived species such as ourselves.

What we can investigate and explore is our local neighbourhood, and there are enough unknowns contained within that to keep us occupied for many years to come.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2015 at 20:37
I understand exactly what you are saying about distances and the time it takes to travel those distances.
That is why I feel that if we are limited to 'real time' travel then why are we even bothering?
I came across a chart the other day that listed the annual space exploration budgets for about twenty countries.
The total amount was staggering and that's annually.

I do not believe that we have discovered everything that exists in this field.
Everything that we know about anything didn't exist until someone discovered it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2015 at 22:18
Alright, I've stayed silent long enough.  It's time I owned up to it.  Every single UFO sighting has just been me holding up a stick with a paper plate attached to a string at the end.


Time always wins.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2015 at 01:39
Originally posted by TeleStrat TeleStrat wrote:

I understand exactly what you are saying about distances and the time it takes to travel those distances.
That is why I feel that if we are limited to 'real time' travel then why are we even bothering?
I was not including FTL speeds as part of 'real time' travelling since to travel faster than light would involve moving out of real time. 

So by 'non real time' travel do you mean (near) instantaneous movement of a mass over a distance?

Originally posted by TeleStrat TeleStrat wrote:

I came across a chart the other day that listed the annual space exploration budgets for about twenty countries.
The total amount was staggering and that's annually.
The total amount of money laying idle in off-shore bank accounts is staggering, then once you start talking about any cash-spend on a national or global scale the numbers become staggering- the global spend on space exploration is one quarter of what was spent on the war on drugs. The total spend over its 50 year history by the USA is roughly half the USA military cost of being in Afganistan for 10 years.

Originally posted by TeleStrat TeleStrat wrote:

I do not believe that we have discovered everything that exists in this field.
That is undoubtedly true.
Originally posted by TeleStrat TeleStrat wrote:

Everything that we know about anything didn't exist until someone discovered it.
And that is also undeniably true, in that we did not know that America existed before we discovered it, but it did exist before then.

However, not everything we speculate that can exist does exist or ever can exist.
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