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Was prog actually popular in the 70s??

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bucka001 View Drop Down
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    Posted: August 05 2013 at 04:56
Dean, if Dr Prog is from the States, he's at least somewhat correct. Genesis had a huge cult following in the States by the end of PG's tenure with the group, but they were hardly a household name. Most fans hadn't heard of them, and neither Selling England nor The Lamb broke the top 40 album charts (they didn't have a hit single until Follow You Follow Me). They could play big clubs and decent theaters/auditoriums but their following was more a big underground following than a mainstream one. They never got regular mainstream radio airplay, they had no familiar 'hits.' ELP, Yes, and Tull were all top ten sellers with mainstream radio play and stadium gigs in the early / mid 70s. That didn't happen for Genesis in the States until after Hackett left (maybe even not until Duke).

I just looked and Dr Prog is from Melbourne. No idea what the climate was like there.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Aussie-Byrd-Brother Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2013 at 04:59
Originally posted by bucka001

I just looked and Dr Prog is from Melbourne. No idea what the climate was like there.

Probably the hot-bed of endless prog bands that it is now......

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2013 at 05:24
Originally posted by bucka001

Dean, if Dr Prog is from the States, he's at least somewhat correct. Genesis had a huge cult following in the States by the end of PG's tenure with the group, but they were hardly a household name. Most fans hadn't heard of them, and neither Selling England nor The Lamb broke the top 40 album charts (they didn't have a hit single until Follow You Follow Me). They could play big clubs and decent theaters/auditoriums but their following was more a big underground following than a mainstream one. They never got regular mainstream radio airplay, they had no familiar 'hits.' ELP, Yes, and Tull were all top ten sellers with mainstream radio play and stadium gigs in the early / mid 70s. That didn't happen for Genesis in the States until after Hackett left (maybe even not until Duke).
Follow the links I provided - they included European and American "stadium" tours. He was referring specifically to concert tours, not airplay, album sales or popularity. A stadium trumps a pub/club basement regardless of where you are.
Originally posted by bucka001

I just looked and Dr Prog is from Melbourne. No idea what the climate was like there.
He was making a general statement, not a location specific one.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote dr prog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2013 at 05:26
Originally posted by Dean


Originally posted by dr prog

I doubt crimson and genesis had big concerts in the 70s like Tull, yes, elp etc. I don't like crimson and genesis from 1970-75 as much as Tull and yes in this era. I reckon gentle giant deserved bigger followings and van der graaf would have had a bigger following if they didn't break up between 1972 and 74. Not sure why elp became so big. They were pretty crap after 1973

Where was it you obtained your PhD in Progology exactly? I really do think you should send it back and ask for a refund, then change your name of course.
 
Genesis were playing stadiums from 1974 (Lamb) onwards. Crimson were also playing stadiums such as The Hollywood Sportatorium in Miami in 1974. GG weren't quite at that level but were reasonably sucessful as a touring band and did actually head line a stadium gig (albeit in Liverpool) given their minority appeal (whether they deserved that is immaterial).


I'm talking about 40,000+ type stadiums. I doubt crimson or genesis played in these stadiums in the 70s.
Bands like Tull, purple, sabbath, zeppelin did it alot.

Edited by dr prog - August 05 2013 at 05:29
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dr prog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2013 at 05:31
Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother

Originally posted by bucka001

I just looked and Dr Prog is from Melbourne. No idea what the climate was like there.

Probably the hot-bed of endless prog bands that it is now......



Good old melbourne
I'm in the dirty old west part of St. Albans lol. What part u live at?
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Aussie-Byrd-Brother Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2013 at 05:35
Ringwood East these days! Can't move for all the progressive rock bands!

Though when I worked at Knox a guy came into my work wearing a Marillion t-shirt once, that kind of blew my mind!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2013 at 05:54
Originally posted by dr prog


I'm talking about 40,000+ type stadiums. I doubt crimson or genesis played in these stadiums in the 70s.
Bands like Tull, purple, sabbath, zeppelin did it alot.
Comparing the Crimson 74 US tour with Tull's the previous year it seems they played similar venues in several cities. Tull were not filling 40,000 seat venues in every city, most were 4,000 seaters. I accept that Tull were "bigger" than King Crimson the year you were born, that is a matter of history, but I don't make guesses based upon perception and whether I like the band or not. Stern Smile


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Post Options Post Options   Quote bucka001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2013 at 05:57
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by bucka001

Dean, if Dr Prog is from the States, he's at least somewhat correct. Genesis had a huge cult following in the States by the end of PG's tenure with the group, but they were hardly a household name. Most fans hadn't heard of them, and neither Selling England nor The Lamb broke the top 40 album charts (they didn't have a hit single until Follow You Follow Me). They could play big clubs and decent theaters/auditoriums but their following was more a big underground following than a mainstream one. They never got regular mainstream radio airplay, they had no familiar 'hits.' ELP, Yes, and Tull were all top ten sellers with mainstream radio play and stadium gigs in the early / mid 70s. That didn't happen for Genesis in the States until after Hackett left (maybe even not until Duke).
Follow the links I provided - they included European and American "stadium" tours. He was referring specifically to concert tours, not airplay, album sales or popularity. A stadium trumps a pub/club basement regardless of where you are.
 
I was looking at it from the U.S. perspective (and the ultimate goal of most bands is to make it in the U.S.; nothing ethnocentric about that [me being from the U.S. and all], I've just interviewed enough British / European musicians to know that's the case). And from that perspective, Dr Prog was right. Genesis were hardly playing stadiums in the U.S. on the Lamb tour (New York's Academy of Music is not exactly MSG; neither is the Masonic Temple in Indy or the Music Hall in Cleveland... two cities where I'd bet [without checking] ELP, Yes, and Tull played bigger venues in '74/'75). And while he wasn't specifically referring to airplay, albums sales, or popularity, those three things do have a direct bearing on what type of venue a band will play (stadium, theater, or club) and Genesis, being less popular than the bigger prog bands of the day, didn't play the same venues (i.e. stadiums) in the States at that time.
 
Britain and other countries are probably a different story.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dr prog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2013 at 06:05
Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother

Ringwood East these days! Can't move for all the progressive rock bands!

Though when I worked at Knox a guy came into my work wearing a Marillion t-shirt once, that kind of blew my mind!


I lived in east burwood and camberwell for 3 years each. I get all my CDs from amazon. But no marillion for me though. Not a fan
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dr prog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2013 at 06:58
Originally posted by Dean


Originally posted by dr prog

I'm talking about 40,000+ type stadiums. I doubt crimson or genesis played in these stadiums in the 70s.
Bands like Tull, purple, sabbath, zeppelin did it alot.

Comparing the Crimson 74 US tour with Tull's the previous year it seems they played similar venues in several cities. Tull were not filling 40,000 seat venues in every city, most were 4,000 seaters. I accept that Tull were "bigger" than King Crimson the year you were born, that is a matter of history, but I don't make guesses based upon perception and whether I like the band or not. Stern Smile


I'm a 100% progger. 1968-83 is all I listen to 99% of the time. Back in the early 70s most bands were prog related so there wasn't much crap going around. Unlike the last 30 years, big bands were actually really good in the early 70s. They had high influence from jazz and classical music and there wasn't rock music in the 60s that you could consider crap. I have read alot how Tull were considered the biggest band in the world for a year or two around the 1972-74 period. From listening to genesis and crimson for 15 years I see why they weren't considered big like Tull etc. The constant changing of vocalists, bass players, drummers in crimson made them a new band every year and I've rarely found a bands first album their best. The only time they looked settled was in 1970 and 74 with a 2nd album from the same lineup as the year before and surprise surprise Poseidon and red are the albums I enjoy enough to play regularly. Lizard is the other album I quite enjoy too but it was a smooth transition from Poseidon with Haskell, sinfield, tippet, fripp and Collins being involved in both albums. I thought the loss of tippet, sinfield and Collins took it toll. While red is cool, I'll always like the melodic, jazzy era of Poseidon and lizard. Not to mention I much preferred lakes voice over wetton. I think Gabriel's voice and lyrics and the off centre type composition to early genesis makes them a band that aren't in my top 5 of the 70s either. There's just something not right about them. I'm always confused how they and crimson get rated number 1 and 2 in here and prog ears. Top 10 maybe but they didn't mix it up with more popular styles of folk and heavy rock. They were what I consider too prog
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2013 at 07:44
oh good grief...


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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2013 at 08:28
Hi,
 
As far as Santa Barbara, from our listening habits, for example, Genesis was played by one person in one station. The other FM station only played "hits" and "top ten" and it was not a live station ... it was a memorex station! It might have gotten some air play at KCSB, the University station ... that everyone knew but no one listened to it, because of the obnoxious ethnocentric attitudes in it. Top ten was a better "escape".
 
Los Angeles itself, at least via KMET and KLOS, did not exactly play Genesis ... it didn't quite fit the "hits" format in their station, but we know that Jim Ladd did play them, along with PF of course!
 
Is that enough for a stadium? ... nope. But it was big enough to do a few nights and sell out big time, which was a massive throwback and finger to a lot of radio stations ... and when you LEARNED that radio was losing its grip and control on music decisions for the public ... this has continued to today, where the "top ten" is almost a totally unknown for you and I! ... it wasn't in those days!
 
But when things like DSOTM hit big in sales, it blew out a lot of radio stations ... and they immediately came up with a cut up version of Money ... to add to their play list ... and there was no Genesis on those lists anywhere in California I do not think!
 
Genesis, did not get airplay that much, and G3 was the only DJ, I ever heard in Southern California that played this band mercilessly ... but I cannot speak for such stations that were in the "import" business, like KNAC, who undoubtedly played Genesis as it was a big "import" band. Later, after it became a "hit" band, and Phil Collins got his own album out, then things started happening. Before then, no! Still today, you get a couple of "Phil Collins" things, and none of them are Genesis ... and that should tell you where the respect and choice is!
 
G3 even went so far as to do numberous sets of music that was "Genesis related", that would be with those styled vocals, and keyboard driven material, but way before Genesis, Guy had already played Ange, PFM and Banco for example! Later he would play some more Spanish, Italian and French bands that were inspired likewise by Supertramp and Yes.


Edited by moshkito - August 05 2013 at 08:37
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2013 at 08:37
So when Genesis played The Shine Audiorium and the Berkeley Comminity Theatre in January 1975 no one turned up?
 
Or were they playing a small gig in the theatre coffee bar,or perhaps just busking outside while Zed Leppelin filled the hall?
 
Sure these are only 4,000 seat venues - most bands would give their right-arm to play to 4,000 people, most bands play to less than 400 people, hell, most bands play to less than 40 people.
 
 


Edited by Dean - August 05 2013 at 08:37


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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2013 at 08:43
Originally posted by Dean

So when Genesis played The Shine Audiorium and the Berkeley Comminity Theatre in January 1975 no one turned up?
 
Or where they playing a small gig in the theatre coffee bar,or perhaps just busking outside while Zed Leppelin filled the hall?
 
Sure these are only 4,000 seat venues - most bands would give their right-arm to play to 4,000 people, most bands play to less than 400 people, hell, most bands play to less than 40 people.
 
 
 
The big ones were The Forum mostly, with the world's worst accoustics then! Long Beach Arena was good sized, but already 20k folks, where I saw YES. Even the Hollywood Bowl, where PF played in 1972, only seats like 16k, I think? ... I can't remember! The Sports Arena did The Wall later in the famous shows that got 507 people busted, and the day before Jethro Tull played the same place and no one got busted!
 
The next size of venues would be like Santa Monica Civic, and the like which are the 4K size halls, that allowed Hawkwind to do its "Space Ritual", and Tangerine Dream on their first tour, and even Nektar on their very first tour. I caught all three of these there at different times. And they were sold out.
 
I am not sure that Genesis, ever had a big gig in Los Angeles at all ... which generally were all reserved for The Who, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull and the like, who DID HAVE hits, as opposed to Genesis, until much later.
 
...
... most bands play to less than 40 people. ...
 
Los Angeles, wasn't that bad ... but then not many showed up.
 
Ex: Gong sold really well, and yet never toured until '95! ... but Daevid even spend seceral months in Santa Barbara living with friends, and did his first "Divided Alien" set of shows there ... either late 74 or 75, have to look!)
 
Ex: Kraftwerk did fairly ok!
 
Ex: Tangerine Dream sold out the Santa Monica Civic (their 1st), the Greek Theater (the live album with the fire in the trees picture -- lazerium's home is on top of the stage ... just look up ... Griffith Observatory!)
 
Ex: Babe Ruth (1972) did really well, considering the main act that night would be Iggy and the Stooges at the Whiskey a GoGo.
 
Ex: Roxy Music sold out the Hollywood Palladium, but the other act with them might have helped.
 
Ex: Yes sold out the Long Beach Arena (20k+) more than once ... twice or 3 times, have to check.
 
Ex: Supertramp did really well as soon as Crime of the Century came out.
 
Ex: Man/Hawkwind - Space 1999 was sold out in a small venue in LA
 
Can't speak for GG, KC and a couple of others that I never saw or kept track of. I came into KC from Lark's Tongues in Aspic, though I had and knew ITCOTCK  ... which was a special album for me, but was way too scattered for me to understand at that time. Missed Caravan, Seventh Wave, and a few other brits like Steeleye Span, Fairport Convention (they played Santa Barbara 3 weeks or so before Sandy Denny passed away ... with Loggins and Messina ... a Santa Barbara favorite!)
 
 


Edited by moshkito - August 05 2013 at 09:43
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bucka001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2013 at 09:04
Originally posted by Dean

So when Genesis played The Shine Audiorium and the Berkeley Comminity Theatre in January 1975 no one turned up?
 
Or were they playing a small gig in the theatre coffee bar,or perhaps just busking outside while Zed Leppelin filled the hall?
 
Sure these are only 4,000 seat venues - most bands would give their right-arm to play to 4,000 people, most bands play to less than 400 people, hell, most bands play to less than 40 people.
 
 
Hi Dean,
 
No, I'm totally with you. Playing consistently to 4k (or, hell, 1,500 seaters) is "success" in my book. I've been mocked on this site for saying so. But I can tell you that Buddy Guy has taken my band on tour with him numerous times on U.S. tours as his opening act and we played to 1,500 - 2,000 a night and I never thought we were playing to a small crowd or that Buddy just wasn't very popular, poor guy (!). Getting to that level is huge.
 
My contention was just that Genesis with Gabriel weren't as popular as the other bigger prog bands during that early/mid 70's period and were not playing to stadiums, unlike the others, in the States at that time.
 
But, to me, even a guy like Peter Hammill is a "success." For over forty years, he's not had to have a "day" job, has been able to support a family of five with his music, plays (w/VdGG) to decent sized theaters and auditoriums, gets written up in national publications/newspapers almost wherever in the world he appears because there's a following there, and gets asked to do TV appearances, is very respected by the media, etc. No big "hits" and not anything close to a household name, but still a "success" in my book.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2013 at 09:06
Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by Dean

So when Genesis played The Shine Audiorium and the Berkeley Comminity Theatre in January 1975 no one turned up?
 
Or where they playing a small gig in the theatre coffee bar,or perhaps just busking outside while Zed Leppelin filled the hall?
 
Sure these are only 4,000 seat venues - most bands would give their right-arm to play to 4,000 people, most bands play to less than 400 people, hell, most bands play to less than 40 people.
 
 
 
The big ones were The Forum mostly, with the world's worst accoustics then! Long Beach Arena was good sized, but already 20k folks, where I saw YES. Even the Hollywood Bowl, where PF played in 1972, only seats like 16k, I think? ... I can't remember! The Sports Arena did The Wall later in the famous shows that got 507 people busted, and the day before Jethro Tull played the same place and no one got busted!
 
The next size of venues would be like Santa Monica Civic, and the like which are the 4K size halls, that allowed Hawkwind to do its "Space Ritual", and Tangerine Dream on their first tour, and even Nektar on their very first tour. I caught all three of these there at different times. And they were sold out.
 
I am not sure that Genesis, ever had a big gig in Los Angeles at all ... which generally were all reserved for The Who, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull and the like, who DID HAVE hits, as opposed to Genesis, until much later.
Genesis, The Forum, 24th March 1977 (Wind & Wuthering tour) - prior to that they had played the (4,000+ seat) Starlight Bowl on several occasions in '75, as they did at the 5,500 seat Winterland in SF.
 
During that same perod they were filling London Earl's Court (15,000 seats) for three nights running and Paris Palais de Sport (8,000 seats) for four nights
 
I have no idea how big a band has to be in the estimation of the people posting here, but to me (and from my experience of attending 1000s of gigs big and small), these would be regarded as "big" by most standards.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2013 at 09:06
Originally posted by Dean



oh good grief...


what? A tad wordy then?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2013 at 09:57
Originally posted by Dean

 
 
...
Genesis, The Forum, 24th March 1977 (Wind & Wuthering tour) - prior to that they had played the (4,000+ seat) Starlight Bowl on several occasions in '75, as they did at the 5,500 seat Winterland in SF.
 ...
 
I have no idea how big a band has to be in the estimation of the people posting here, but to me (and from my experience of attending 1000s of gigs big and small), these would be regarded as "big" by most standards.
 
The time span that I mentioned in here was way before that ... before Genesis hit bigger. 
 
All the info I wrote down stops at about December 31st 1975!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Evolver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2013 at 10:02
Originally posted by dr prog

   Back in the early 70s most bands were prog related so there wasn't much crap going around.


A bit of selective memory?
Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2013 at 10:05
Okay... so you are saying that Genesis were not big before they became big... and the 70s ended on New Years Eve 1975.
 
Fairy snuff. As long as we set the ground rules we can hammer the facts to fit the pre-written conclusion. Brilliant.


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