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Was prog actually popular in the 70s??

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moshkito View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Was prog actually popular in the 70s??
    Posted: April 28 2013 at 17:16
Originally posted by The Doctor

^I always thought he was kind of meh.  People like David Bowie and Prince were much better pop song writers and entertainers IMO.
 
Prince, is already AFTER MJ.
 
MJ is much more important and a veritable force in one element that it's hard for folks outside America to understand ... most black musicians had audiences that were 80/20 or more black folks ... and when you went to see MJ, you had almost a 50/50 mix ... and if that is not important to you in America history, then you do not know, or understand the plight of the black person in America, and even the unspoken things that happened in the arts, like Hollywood being the main reason why a lot of black music was buried in the 50's in favor of the "movie star" and the "stars" that the studios were making with film! ... check out Tom Dowd's DVD for more information on this time and place.
 
But you also want to take a look at Tom Dowd's thing, keeping with Orson Welles in mind, and specially "Citizen Kane" ... Orson was not some idiot that did not care, and he knew what was going on ... and was quite a rebel!
 
BTW, it also helps explain the issues that led to the WORLD WIDE cultural revolution that television and radio brought up slowly but surely ... I don't think that the founding fathers of radio, tv, and movies, ever thought ... they would change the world with their pictures, news and fun!
 
In fact, we still do not believe it, and about half of this whole world still has no idea, and some areas, they are making sure no one STILL can not see those things or hear it ... !!!! Think about it!


Edited by moshkito - April 28 2013 at 17:47
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

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moshkito View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2013 at 17:24
Originally posted by Dean

Ermm My Yessongs vinyl is a tripple album - you need to take your's back and get a refund.
 
So was mine ... and I sold it away a long time ago ... and got the CD instead ... I miss the art work though! And you know that I am nutz about art!
  
Originally posted by presdoug

...
I'm curious about something-what was the reception Wallenstein got in America in the seventies? Were they played on the FM radio? Did they tour in North America back then?
...
 
I know that Guy played everything that the Cosmic Couriers had and then some ... and you probably never heard anyone else mention that ... this stuff, simply was not radio material (per se!) and not stuff that even folks here can enjoy and appreciate like morons like me can, or Guy could, regardless of what he was doing while the whole album played ... !!! Gads ... even Tarot made the grade ... and many other things! But I doubt, sincerely, that ANYONE else ever has played these things and gave them the attention and care that they deserved, even for the artistic courage, if nothing else!
 
To my knowledge, none of these folks EVER made it to America, and even Manuel Gottsching recent thing at UCLA fell apart ... and tells you that Royce Hall is too big and too famous for anyone in the Cosmic Couriers and places like California can be really uncouth and bad about these things ... I seriously doubt that even Klaus Schulze will ever make it to America ... maybe after he dies!
 
 


Edited by moshkito - April 28 2013 at 17:38
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote presdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2013 at 20:29
^And you know, moshkito, something that sucks is that keyboardist Jurgen Dollase, is completely and permanently out of music. (He is now a gastronomist-food and restaurant critic- in Europe) He was so important to the groups in which he was a member, couldn't imagine Wallenstein or the Cosmic Jokers, etc. without him.
"and what music unites, man should not take apart"--Helmut Koellen                               
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lord_Adon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2013 at 10:08
Some popular bands were a bit progressive. Some still are. I think Peter Gabriel is very prog!
For the most part, it seems to stay out of the mainstream though.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stool Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2013 at 10:10
Originally posted by presdoug

^And you know, moshkito, something that sucks is that keyboardist Jurgen Dollase, is completely and permanently out of music. (He is now a gastronomist-food and restaurant critic- in Europe) He was so important to the groups in which he was a member, couldn't imagine Wallenstein or the Cosmic Jokers, etc. without him.
 
ah but Cosmic Jokers were not really a band, not in the sense that the players were members of a band. Wink
rotten hound of the burnie crew
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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2013 at 10:27
Originally posted by Stool Man

Originally posted by presdoug

^And you know, moshkito, something that sucks is that keyboardist Jurgen Dollase, is completely and permanently out of music. (He is now a gastronomist-food and restaurant critic- in Europe) He was so important to the groups in which he was a member, couldn't imagine Wallenstein or the Cosmic Jokers, etc. without him.
 
ah but Cosmic Jokers were not really a band, not in the sense that the players were members of a band. Wink
 
Maybe that is an issue that musicians have ... both sides of that album are phenomenal and a tribute to musicians listening to each other and making a "feel" extend itself very well ... and you don't need drugs to do that ... just ... some quiet, and some listening!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2013 at 12:56
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by progbethyname

You don't wanna know what they listen to. You would cry in your soup. I say soup because you claim to be 'so old' so I assume you have no teeth. Lol. Na seriously though Dean you are very open minded and offer a lot of great insights to topics that revolve around youth or experience. Are you of the BOOMER generation?

Let's say I have most of my teeth, I am British so would be fitted into the bad-teeth stereotype whether it was true or not - soup is not something I enjoy, I honestly don't see the point of it. I have no real concept of what a boomer is and don't specifically associate myself with that generation eventhough technically I belong, nor would I associate myself with Generation X. I actually think the generation that invented Prog (ie MY generation) are the inbetweenies that come from that overlap between the two - too young to be beatniks or hippies, to old to be punks and that is why Prog is so difficult to pin down to any single ideal, subculture, style or motivation.


Well I am happy to know how you feel. I certainly am glad that you have your teeth As well. Being British and having them at your age is a real plus. :) also. If I had to classify myself I would definitely be from the BOOMERANG generation where by I go out and live on my own for quite a while and then come back home to live with my parents because of the spoils of the job market and economy that a lot of the Boomer gen f**ked up and corrupted. Glad to hear you don't define your age to any class or subculture. Keep it open as you would for the love of prog. :)
Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2013 at 12:57
Originally posted by cstack3


Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother

Originally posted by cstack3

I don't think Justin Bieber has a full-length concert movie yet.  What would it be called, "Give Me Back My Monkey!" ??  What a w*nker. 

Sadly, Cstack3, Justin Bieber DID have a full-length concert/doco movie, in 3D no less! I only remember this because several girls in my office mentioned when it came out they were off to watch it....think I said something like `Well, you might as well have just taken that money....and flushed it down the toilet!"

That is freakin' SICK!  
Michael Jackson's swan song movie "This Is It" was pretty good, all things considered.  His guitarist, the Aussie lass Orithani, was excellent. 


your right. It's madness!!!
Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Aussie-Byrd-Brother Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2013 at 13:11
Nick/Cstack!

I remember that Aussie girl Orithani had a minor commercial hit around about the same time as that Jackson movie came out. Tom Ozric on the Archives said to me `There's some song on the work radio, I think it must be Santana, it's got this wailing guitar over every inch of it...' lol! Turns out it was her song!

In regards to the Beiber film, the only way that could have made it better is if they took the 3D even further, made it a true multimedia extravaganza - why not have planes that fly over the audience dropping sh*t on them, all to a 360 degree surround sound mix of Bieber laughing manically?! Roger's `The Wall' eat your heart out!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2013 at 20:26
Originally posted by Lord_Adon

Some popular bands were a bit progressive. Some still are. I think Peter Gabriel is very prog!
For the most part, it seems to stay out of the mainstream though.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2013 at 22:30
Sorry, it's spelled Orianthi!!  She's really good, maybe she'll cross over to prog someday? 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2013 at 12:11
Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother

Nick/Cstack!

I remember that Aussie girl Orithani had a minor commercial hit around about the same time as that Jackson movie came out. Tom Ozric on the Archives said to me `There's some song on the work radio, I think it must be Santana, it's got this wailing guitar over every inch of it...' lol! Turns out it was her song!

In regards to the Beiber film, the only way that could have made it better is if they took the 3D even further, made it a true multimedia extravaganza - why not have planes that fly over the audience dropping sh*t on them, all to a 360 degree surround sound mix of Bieber laughing manically?! Roger's `The Wall' eat your heart out!


Would you really want to hear a pop song or artist have all the wonderful sound bells and whistles attached to that kind of music?? You would die, ok! Lol. Let's keep in the prog in super stereophonic heaven and Bieber land in crusty old a track or mono. Lol
Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Aussie-Byrd-Brother Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2013 at 12:17
I don't know, Nick, I think we'll take it up with his monkey!

However, I'm sure any such meetings with Bieber and his monkey will dissolve into plenty of faeces throwing...and the monkey will look on unhappily too!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2013 at 04:20
Back on topic here..

All the great and commercially successful prog bands of the 70's started making crap albums by the end of the 70's.  Tull did "A" which is not a positive progression from their previous albums. ELP's Love Beach... Giant for a Day, Camel made some cheesy horrible albums as did Haslam's camp.  In through the Out Door was a pathetic offering from Zep.

I feel the fall of prog lies on the artists themselves for making bad albums.  What if they had just stuck to their guns and kept making great albums?  Why should guys in their late 30's be burned out when many classical composers did their best works well into their 60's or even beyond?

Floyd did The Wall. Great album and was successful.. Hugely so.  Rush put out Moving Pictures around 1980 and it was their greatest seller I believe.  Hugely successful. 

Yes never totally came apart as Tormato and Drama were still qualtiy releases.. but not up to CTTE or TFTO standards. 

Genesis went pop but they did really good pop.  What killed these other bands is that they did bad pop.. and bad prog.
Yes got lucky with "Owner...." as that could have been a miss and gone unoticed.  The rest of the album might have sold as well as "Beat" or "Three of a Perfect Pair"

AC DC proved you don't have to reinvent yourself every 5 minutes. Iron Maiden also. 

Scorpions could have gone prog.. they had the musicianship to do it.. but they went more metal, and pop.. but they had great pop songs. 

The Prog artists should have said no to drum machines, and digital manipulation.  Because they didn't need them.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2013 at 04:41
Yes, some of those prog rock bands fell off the proverbial cliff by the late 70s.  Maybe they should have stuck to their guns but I wonder how much support they enjoyed from the labels by that point.   Speaking of Renaissance, Annie joked they would have to sell their houses to have an orchestra accompany them on tour now.  It was in the late 70s, probably right after Song for All Seasons that orchestras got unionized.  Put the pieces together and maybe the lavish pyrotechnics of old prog were not feasible any more.  Pink Floyd lost money on The Wall tour, for instance.   But the album was a hit and so was Moving Pictures because both bands had crossover appeal and could incorporate more contemporary (for the time) influences without losing their identity.  How feasible would a repeat of Saucerful of Secrets have been in 1979?  But surely it would have been a lot more ambitious and experimental than The Wall?  Some succeeded in adapting to the winds of change and some didn't, but change they had to. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2013 at 04:52

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Looks like progression was a lose-lose situation if you didn't do it the way the stuck in the mud retrogressive fans wanted, but stagnation wasn't a win-win either... what a dilemma.

Thing is, we never got over the idea of "selling out". Commercialism was a dirty word, even with bands who were successful because the backlash was never far behind, an artist is only permitted to hog the limelight for so long, you cannot be the darling of the fans forever. The Progilluminati has degreed success is not to be tolerated, bring on the brickbats, man the barricades, repel all boarders, throw your sabots into the gears of the new technology, audacity is the anathema to artistry - Steven Wilson stands as testament to that, had Ronnie Stolt sold more albums he too would be in the dock of this kangaroo court of the defenders of the faith and the worshippers at the altar of Ludd.
 
This is the genre of do what you will and do what you want, bowing the the pressure of an elite is to be resisted regardless of the uniform that elite wears, give the die-hard fans what they want can be just as wrong as giving the record execs what they want. If you don't like the results then don't buy it, just don't winge and whine about what could have been, what should have been or what might have been - that's a has been lament
 
Your way or the highway? I'll take the free way and I'll still be in Progland before ye, but me and my true love will never meet again on the bonnie, bonnie banks of Rick's keyboards.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2013 at 05:31
Originally posted by Surrealist



Floyd did The Wall. Great album and was successful.. Hugely so.
Hugely successful because it had Another Brick In The Wall Pt 2, not precisely because of The Trial. I knew many people who would proudly show the double album off but they would only play Another Brick Pt 2 and change to something else.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2013 at 05:33
Originally posted by Dean

 
This is the genre of do what you will and do what you want, bowing the the pressure of an elite is to be resisted regardless of the uniform that elite wears, give the die-hard fans what they want can be just as wrong as giving the record execs what they want. If you don't like the results then don't buy it, just don't winge and whine about what could have been, what should have been or what might have been - that's a has been lament
 

Strongly agree.  Never understood how the artist's influences are supposed to magically align with the preferences of listeners.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2013 at 05:51
Originally posted by Gerinski

Hugely successful because it had Another Brick In The Wall Pt 2, not precisely because of The Trial. I knew many people who would proudly show the double album off but they would only play Another Brick Pt 2 and change to something else.
Originally posted by rogerthat

   Never understood how the artist's influences are supposed to magically align with the preferences of listeners.
 
The concept of The Wall is exactly this. The infamous Montreal spitting incident that became the final brick. The barrier between what the artist wanted to play and what the fans clamoured for. Once success is achieved the gigs become those relentless "Greatest Hits" carrosel tours performed by the original artists, the fanbase wants an official tribute band comprising of the original members. In Prog we pretend that is not the case, we don't want the greatest hits tour, we want the more of the same tour, but they are one and the same.
"There's an exhibit based on The Wall at the Rock N' Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland, and they asked me for a quote to put up as graffiti on it. And this is what I wrote: 'In the Old Days, pre-Dark Side of the Moon, Pink Floyd played to audiences which, by virtue of their size, allowed an intimacy of connection that was magical. However, success overtook us and by 1977 we were playing in football stadiums. The magic was crushed beneath the weight of numbers. We were becoming addicted to the trappings of popularity. I found myself increasingly alienated in that atmosphere of avarice and ego until one night in the Olympic Stadium, Montreal, the boil of my frustrations burst. Some crazed teenage fan was clawing his way up the storm netting that separated us from the human cattle pen in front of the stage screaming his devotion to the demi-gods beyond his reach. Incensed by his misunderstanding and my own connivance, I spat my frustration in his face. Later that night, back at the hotel, shocked by my behavior, I was faced with a choice. To deny my addiction and embrace that comfortably numb but magic-less existence or accept the burden of insight, take the road less traveled and embark on the often painful journey to discover who I was and where I fit. The wall was the picture I drew for myself to help me make that choice.' That's a good summation of it." - Roger Waters
The irony of the success of The Wall and its radio-friendly four-by-four disco (dubsteppy) hit single.
 


Edited by Dean - May 11 2013 at 05:54


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2013 at 06:02
I wonder how many people here walk away from a two hour show moaning about what the band didn't play rather than enjoying in what they did play?


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