Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - When did Prog first "Jump the Shark"?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

When did Prog first "Jump the Shark"?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 7>
Author
Message
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Albion
Status: Offline
Points: 33171
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2013 at 10:04
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

For those that don't know, the term "Jump the Shark" was actually derived from a "dramatic" 2-part episode of Happy Days which featured Fonzie "jumping a shark" on his motorcycle. 
On waterskis...



If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman
Back to Top
rushfan4 View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 49610
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rushfan4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2013 at 10:07
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

For those that don't know, the term "Jump the Shark" was actually derived from a "dramatic" 2-part episode of Happy Days which featured Fonzie "jumping a shark" on his motorcycle. 
On waterskis...

That's right, it was waterskis.
Back to Top
akamaisondufromage View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: May 16 2009
Location: Blighty
Status: Offline
Points: 6351
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote akamaisondufromage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2013 at 10:26
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

For those that don't know, the term "Jump the Shark" was actually derived from a "dramatic" 2-part episode of Happy Days which featured Fonzie "jumping a shark" on his motorcycle. 
On waterskis...

That's right, it was waterskis.
 
On his motorcycle on waterskis! Wow! impressive Heeey!
Help me I'm falling!
Back to Top
rushfan4 View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 49610
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rushfan4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2013 at 10:29
Back to Top
The Doctor View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8409
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2013 at 10:31
Hey, that's Laurette Spang next to Ralph.  I had a torrid love affair with her when I was 9 years old.  Of course, she knew nothing about said love affair. 

Edited by The Doctor - May 06 2013 at 10:38
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
Back to Top
HolyMoly View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl and Canterbury Teams

Joined: April 01 2009
Location: Atlanta
Status: Offline
Points: 20629
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HolyMoly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2013 at 11:01
That's why it was so torrid.
My other avatar is a Porsche / RARE GOAT bandcamp page

It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.
-Kehlog Albran
Back to Top
akamaisondufromage View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: May 16 2009
Location: Blighty
Status: Offline
Points: 6351
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote akamaisondufromage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2013 at 11:04
When did you dump her for somebody else?
Help me I'm falling!
Back to Top
The Doctor View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8409
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2013 at 11:05
when they ended the original battlestar galactica, I guess we just kind of grew apart.
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
Back to Top
Warthur View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: January 06 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 531
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Warthur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2013 at 11:44
I agree that prog never "jumped the shark" when it came to the quality of work produced at least on the basis that there was always someone producing good material.

On the other hand, this is true of any musical genre which has any appreciable amount of activity whatsoever.

Perhaps a more interesting question is when mainstream commercial prog jumped the shark - by which I mean that part of the genre which enjoyed mainstream commercial success. I 100% agree that Locanda delle Fate's debut album was an amazing release and really kept the prog flame burning, but I think we also have to consider that it just didn't impact the mainstream consciousness to the extent that the likes of Yes did.

Personally, I'd go with the conventional wisdom and say that 1975-1976 would be the time when prog lost its grip on being a mainstream commercial force. Some individual bands were able to stay strong after that, but many of them sooner or later shifted to a deliberately less proggy sound in order to do so, and the market became decidedly more difficult for new bands from that point onwards.

Part of this comes down to the simple fact that fashions change, but I also think it comes down to many of the "big six" prog bands - the ones with the greatest commercial visibility who were essentially the "ambassadors" of prog to the mainstream during the era - dropping the ball to a greater or lesser extent during that time period. Let's consider:

- ELP went on hiatus in 1974. This made it all too easy for the public's attention to drift, and Works, love it or hate it, wasn't exactly the album to win back the general public.

- Yes likewise were on hiatus, and whilst their comeback album (Going For the One) was somewhat more widely embraced than Works the hiatus itself still left a gap in which people's attentions could wander.

- King Crimson were gone, Fripp declaring the era of the dinosaur bands over and specifically urging people to small, independent units for the future of music.

- Jethro Tull were going through an awkward phase which would eventually come to an end with Songs From the Wood but for the time being was a bit hit-or-miss.

Now, Pink Floyd brought out one of their best albums at this time and Genesis were able to keep going without Peter Gabriel's departure really slowing them down very much at all, so there was still interesting stuff going on in the prog field which would have been on the mainstream commercial radar. However, the fact was that half of the big six were on hiatus at the time (and one of those hiatuses looked for all the world like actual death) and another one was going through a rough patch. Now, as prog fans we know full well that this wasn't the whole story of what was going on at the time, but it's easy for us to forget that those bands had far more commercial and mainstream visibility than just about any other prog group you could name in the era - even Caravan, Camel, VdGG or Gentle Giant weren't on the same level. (The Moody Blues were close, but they were on hiatus too.) 

The fact is that if you were a music fan who wasn't very well connected to the prog scene and didn't know about all of the more esoteric releases coming out of the time, 1975-1976 would have looked like a period of sudden collapse for the genre, with major bands breaking up or going on hiatus at an alarming pace. You'd have probably been keeping up with Floyd or Genesis, but those two bands on their own couldn't keep up the momentum the Big Six had enjoyed when all six of them were firing on all cylinders. When you factor in the consideration that the internet didn't exist yet - so it was that much harder for, say, a prog fan in the UK to find out about Locanda delle Fate in the first place - and it becomes easy to see why many listeners would have started looking elsewhere at that point.

So, I'd say prog "jumped the shark" - in the sense of "lost its grip on mainstream, commercial success" - when a high proportion of its main ambassadors to the mainstream left their posts. Prog wasn't pushed, it jumped.
Back to Top
King Crimson776 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 12 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2488
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King Crimson776 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2013 at 14:43
I just don't think people need concern themselves so much with the sales aspect. That will become less and less important, I guarantee you. The rock star thing is dead. This is a good thing.
"It's music, and I like it" - Miles Davis on Sketches of Spain
Back to Top
Warthur View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: January 06 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 531
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Warthur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2013 at 19:57
Oh, absolutely, and if the same thing happened today (half the front-rank prog bands split or go on hiatus) it wouldn't have nearly the same effect - new and up-and-coming bands would just slot right into the vacuum the old bands left behind. Thanks to the Internet era it's harder to make a fat stack of money out of progressive music but the actual prog scene is far more resilient.
Back to Top
progbethyname View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 30 2012
Location: DAC LAND
Status: Offline
Points: 5110
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2013 at 21:54
Well speaking of hiatus. Scottish Neo Prog band PALLAS went on a 12 year hiatus and came back in 1999 with album BEAT THE DRUM, which I think it was well worth the wait and arguably their best work to date. :)
Yeah....now that's jumping shark!! Lol
Threshold still have all the goods that makes them one of the best classic rock/Prog metal bands in the world. 2014's For The Journey is worth a serious listen.
Back to Top
humor4u1959 View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: April 02 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 97
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote humor4u1959 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2013 at 01:24
Prog "jumped the shark" by 1980, if not a bit sooner than that. It cracks me up when someone says that prog is going strong or is alive and kicking. No it's not! These folks are delusional.

Sure, some bands are still flogging the proverbial dead horse, but it's not a popular style of music with the masses and never will be again. Yet, the old prog bands, as well as the newer ones, have a devout following. I won't debate that. But, you don't hear new prog on the radio now like you did in the 1970's.

And, they don't play huge venues either. The exception to this would be Yes as in last summer's tour of open amphitheaters. Procol Harum opened for them. What a joke! Everyone said they were so much better than Yes, but even my faves, Procol Harum, have dropped to being an opening act. Many years ago, King Crimson and Yes opened for Procol on the same bill! It's sad.

So, let's just be thankful that we'll always have the recorded material to enjoy. That's enough for me.

Edited by humor4u1959 - May 07 2013 at 01:26
Back to Top
Stool Man View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 30 2007
Location: Anti-Cool (anag
Status: Offline
Points: 2122
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stool Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2013 at 01:38
Originally posted by humor4u1959 humor4u1959 wrote:

Prog "jumped the shark" by 1980, if not a bit sooner than that. It cracks me up when someone says that prog is going strong or is alive and kicking. No it's not! These folks are delusional.

Sure, some bands are still flogging the proverbial dead horse, but it's not a popular style of music with the masses and never will be again. Yet, the old prog bands, as well as the newer ones, have a devout following. I won't debate that. But, you don't hear new prog on the radio now like you did in the 1970's.

And, they don't play huge venues either. The exception to this would be Yes as in last summer's tour of open amphitheaters. Procol Harum opened for them. What a joke! Everyone said they were so much better than Yes, but even my faves, Procol Harum, have dropped to being an opening act. Many years ago, King Crimson and Yes opened for Procol on the same bill! It's sad.

So, let's just be thankful that we'll always have the recorded material to enjoy. That's enough for me.

I asked elsewhere about million sellers, and was informed that Dream Theater have sold twelve million albums. Is that not good enough? I don't have figures for anyone else, but prog bands like Muse & Radiohead are mainstream bands (or did you not see Muse at The Olympics?)
rotten hound of the burnie crew
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5687
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2013 at 08:28
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

...
So what do you think. What's your choice for Prog's Jumping the Shark moment?
 
A few bands out there ... let's see ...
 
ELP ...
Amon Duul 2
Can
Focus
Black Sabbath
Rolling Stones
Michael Jackson
King Crimson
...
 
Just about all the bands really ... some folks might even say Pink Floyd, after Roger, though I disagree. The ones that sold a million, and then only 100k on their next album, were the first that not only junped the shark, they got eaten by that shark ... since the shark was the music company, or record company!
 
The problem is that some of these bands were still selling, and the ability to close down shop is harder when you have a larger payroll of folks to handle ...


Edited by moshkito - May 07 2013 at 08:36
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
The Doctor View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8409
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2013 at 08:38
Originally posted by humor4u1959 humor4u1959 wrote:

Prog "jumped the shark" by 1980, if not a bit sooner than that. It cracks me up when someone says that prog is going strong or is alive and kicking. No it's not! These folks are delusional.

Sure, some bands are still flogging the proverbial dead horse, but it's not a popular style of music with the masses and never will be again. Yet, the old prog bands, as well as the newer ones, have a devout following. I won't debate that. But, you don't hear new prog on the radio now like you did in the 1970's.

And, they don't play huge venues either. The exception to this would be Yes as in last summer's tour of open amphitheaters. Procol Harum opened for them. What a joke! Everyone said they were so much better than Yes, but even my faves, Procol Harum, have dropped to being an opening act. Many years ago, King Crimson and Yes opened for Procol on the same bill! It's sad.

So, let's just be thankful that we'll always have the recorded material to enjoy. That's enough for me.
 
I'm not sure why you're equating "jumping the shark" with record sales and the size of venues played.  That term has nothing to do with popularity and has to do with the quality of the work produced.  Something "jumps the shark" when it begins to decline in quality, not in quantity sold. 
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member

VIP Member

Joined: September 03 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 5602
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2013 at 10:40
Originally posted by Stool Man Stool Man wrote:

Originally posted by humor4u1959 humor4u1959 wrote:

Prog "jumped the shark" by 1980, if not a bit sooner than that. It cracks me up when someone says that prog is going strong or is alive and kicking. No it's not! These folks are delusional.

Sure, some bands are still flogging the proverbial dead horse, but it's not a popular style of music with the masses and never will be again. Yet, the old prog bands, as well as the newer ones, have a devout following. I won't debate that. But, you don't hear new prog on the radio now like you did in the 1970's.

And, they don't play huge venues either. The exception to this would be Yes as in last summer's tour of open amphitheaters. Procol Harum opened for them. What a joke! Everyone said they were so much better than Yes, but even my faves, Procol Harum, have dropped to being an opening act. Many years ago, King Crimson and Yes opened for Procol on the same bill! It's sad.

So, let's just be thankful that we'll always have the recorded material to enjoy. That's enough for me.

I asked elsewhere about million sellers, and was informed that Dream Theater have sold twelve million albums. Is that not good enough? I don't have figures for anyone else, but prog bands like Muse & Radiohead are mainstream bands (or did you not see Muse at The Olympics?)


But they are not prog Shocked.  Haven't you heard, 'real' prog died in the 70s, Fripp killed it after Red album.  LOL
Back to Top
Jim Garten View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin & Razor Guru

Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
Status: Offline
Points: 14549
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Garten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2013 at 11:00
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Haven't you heard, 'real' prog died in the 70s, Fripp killed it after Red album.  LOL


The corpse was then fed to a shark, which Arthur Fonzarelli subsequently jumped on waterskis whilst riding a motorcycle, hence the OP's original question is answered...

Huzzah - a PA thread about prog going downhill answered to an ample sufficiency within 2 pages; this is a record!

Incidentally, it is a little known fact that the cover photo of ELP's Love Beach was taken as they were waiting for said shark (see above) to be BBQ'd, having died of boredom listening to an early Pallas demo

Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
Back to Top
TheProgtologist View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: May 23 2005
Location: Baltimore,Md US
Status: Offline
Points: 27677
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheProgtologist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2013 at 11:03
Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:

Prog hasn't jumped the shark at all - not even close.

Still MID-FLIGHT, baby, and there it's going to stay forever!

ClapClapClap

Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Albion
Status: Offline
Points: 33171
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2013 at 12:04
Originally posted by Jim Garten Jim Garten wrote:


Huzzah - a PA thread about prog going downhill answered to an ample sufficiency within 2 pages; this is a record! 

No. Unless this is pressed into three 12" platters of 130gm black polyvinyl chloride and housed in a die-cut tripple-gatefold sleeve whose Patrick Woodroffe designed artwork bears absolutely no relationship to the contents, complete with a fully-illustrated 32 page story-book/lyric-sheet and a fold-out poster and several assorted stickers and iron-on tattoos shrink wrapped in hallucinogenic-inducing mylar foil designed by Bridget Riley then I refuse to call this "a record". Stern Smile
 
 
Anyway, we've another twelvty pages of post answer discussion and analysis to go yet.


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 7>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.070 seconds.