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When did Prog first "Jump the Shark"?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2013 at 12:07
First the rebuttal:  Laurette Spang looks smokin in that bikini.  Stern Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2013 at 12:16
moreover, it's what the Palmer, Lake and Emerson were looking [at] when the photograph for the cover of Love Beach was taken. Hence the big sh*t-eating grins.

Edited by Dean - May 07 2013 at 13:27




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stegor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2013 at 12:36
I think Jumping the Shark suggests more than just a decline in quality, it's more of a sudden departure into the ridiculous. I think only a few Prog bands actually did that, most just gradually got boring.

Jethro Tull jumped it with A. It was such a self conscious attempt to modernize. Ian and Martin looked ridiculous in those white jumpsuits. Were they trying to be DEVO?
ELP - Love Beach of course. They were approaching the shark with Works I and II, building the intensity and suspense leading up to the actual jump.
Genesis - They didn't really jump the shark, they just sort of paddled around it in a canoe for a while and then it tipped over. Same with Yes, I think. Big Generator was obviously the end of anything Progressive (for the time being), but it wasn't ridiculous or laughable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stool Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2013 at 12:57
Ridiculous moments, eh? ....nope, can't think of a single ridiculous moment in the entire fifty years
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2013 at 13:19
I had no idea what jumping the shark meant before this thread, but seeing the video I can clearly see it, how much more ridiculous can you get? LOL  Honestly I did not even know that TV show, I may be a real ignorant.
Prog was never that pathetic, even in its worst days.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2013 at 15:15
ELP appearing on German TV for the track 'Tiger In A Spotlight' when they had a live tiger at the front of the stage (chained I might add). Some might go with Lake's Persian carpet but at least it had a function.

Genesis/Peter Gabriel and the Slipperman costume

Rick Wakeman - King Arthur On Ice

Yes - Rick Wakeman and the curry episode









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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stool Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2013 at 15:26
King Arthur on ice had a practical basis, at least - the venue he wanted for the show had an ice-skating show on at the time, and Rick's gig came during a few days break in the show. Rather than change venue, Rick said "ok, we'll do it with the ice"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2013 at 18:18
Originally posted by stegor stegor wrote:

I think Jumping the Shark suggests more than just a decline in quality, it's more of a sudden departure into the ridiculous.



Yes, Yes, Yes ! You got it. This is exactly what I was thinking when I posted the question. Read my comment about Wakeman. Maybe not enough people have seen this movie or the scene I'm referencing. It IS ridiculous! As is the cover to the much discussed Love Beach and much of the music contained within it.

I'll repeat an earlier comment I made, I don't believe, or ever intended to suggest, that Prog as a genre Jumped. I really was looking for other examples of those within the genre Jumping. But it's been a blast reading the posts.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2013 at 03:30
Keith Emerson's spinning piano


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2013 at 06:23
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


Yes - Rick Wakeman and the curry episode
 
 
Nah, that was just funny. A simple case of a misheard instruction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2013 at 14:25
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Keith Emerson's spinning piano



a good example perfectly fitting the idea of 'ridiculous' as well as entirely pointless.

Love Beach on the other hand was just a bit lame and just indicative of a band already on a sharp decline.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ProgressiveMike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2013 at 00:17
ProgressiveMike, here. Before I begin, this is easily the best thread we've had in a long time. Few things I'd like to address, however;

FIRST AND FOREMOST: Arthur on ice is the greatest idea in the history of humanity. Ever. I can only pray that Mr. Wakeman puts it on tour again one day.

MOSTLY: Prog was destroyed by Trevor Horn and Geoff Downes. May they both burn in hell for encouraging Yes and Asia to use my own heroes to break my heart. Sure, U.K. was sort of getting there. But what they were doing in the late 70's was edgy, became norm in the 80's. It's that 80's sound. That 80's production. That 80's desire to listen to Duran Duran. Terribly piece of music history, the 80's were. The only real exceptions I can think of is King Crimson's 80's revival and Marillion who have seemed to kidnap Peter Gabriel and force him to sing under an assumed name. I mean, even Anderson Brufford Wakeman and Howe, forgive me, sound so bad compared to their 70s work, or even their work with other groups and producers. The sound from the 80's is just absolute sh*t, unless you were a pop act. That's when prog faded into irrelevancy. And that's really the key in the question of jumping a shark. I think the Steven Wilson thing and Roine Stolte thing sort have helped prog out in the 90s, and of course the Mars Volta in the 00's, but it really is a questionable future for prog music, considering how many copies/digital downloads of Moves Like Jagger has probably sold and considering that EDM (by far my least favorite musical movement of all time) is flying off the shelves at alarming rates, I don't think we can count on the next generation to find any value whatsoever in complicated and subtle music. I think that's another reason why metal is such a big thing right now, is that no one cares about the content anymore. They use music to fill a sonic void and have no intention to actually listen to it. Metal, rap, EDM, 99% of pop, 99% of country. It's terrible, but it's what is making 99.99999% of the money at the label. It's likely a record label isn't going to sign a prog band ever, when there are plenty of these new-fangled "indie-folk" groups to squeeze money out of. It's happened before. The public says "Ok record company, we'll listen to what you say!" Then you get to hear Hanson every 3 hours for the next two years. Look at the trends though. Jet comes out with a "classic" sound , and the record companies try to push Wolfmother and the Darkness on us. Limp Bizkit is selling records (for some god awful reason) and the record companies say, "Hey! We can do that. Hand me that tape, because we're signing... Linkin Park." this copy and force-feed process is prevalent in all forms of popular media.

Finally: I have rambled on for several hundred words that everyone will get bored reading.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2013 at 01:08
Originally posted by Stool Man Stool Man wrote:

King Arthur on ice had a practical basis, at least - the venue he wanted for the show had an ice-skating show on at the time, and Rick's gig came during a few days break in the show. Rather than change venue, Rick said "ok, we'll do it with the ice"

That's true

Rick had signed a terrible contract with A&M, and to make it worst, he had a heart attack at the age of 24 or 25 that almost killed him.

The doctors forbid him to play on stage anymore when all started, and he was afraid (luckily it wasn't so bad), so he wrote Myths & Legends at the hospital, because he was desperate for money.

Quote This is in many ways a musical autobiography. Much was written in my head whilst lying in Wexham Park Hospital after my first minor heart attack. The Last Battle I wrote after being advised by the specialist, in front of my management, that he recommended I stopped playing and retired in order to give myself a chance of a reasonable recovery.

I was 25.

Thankfully I ignored the advice, wrote The Last Battle that night, and carried on. Heart surgery has come a long way since the mid seventies as well thankfully!



The album was a success but A&M ate most the profits, so he had to live from his stage acts, he asked Wembley and they accepted but then then hired a skating show and programmed the same days, and the guys thought that the skate show was more profitable (Rick sold out the three dates).

So they said or you do it on ice or you don't do it, he needed the money and recruited some skaters from the show

If you need money for your family, you do anything.

And honestly, wasn't that bad



Iván
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2013 at 01:09
Originally posted by ProgressiveMike ProgressiveMike wrote:

ProgressiveMike, here. Before I begin, this is easily the best thread we've had in a long time. Few things I'd like to address, however;

FIRST AND FOREMOST: Arthur on ice is the greatest idea in the history of humanity. Ever. I can only pray that Mr. Wakeman puts it on tour again one day.

MOSTLY: Prog was destroyed by Trevor Horn and Geoff Downes. May they both burn in hell for encouraging Yes and Asia to use my own heroes to break my heart. Sure, U.K. was sort of getting there. But what they were doing in the late 70's was edgy, became norm in the 80's. It's that 80's sound. That 80's production. That 80's desire to listen to Duran Duran. Terribly piece of music history, the 80's were. The only real exceptions I can think of is King Crimson's 80's revival and Marillion who have seemed to kidnap Peter Gabriel and force him to sing under an assumed name. I mean, even Anderson Brufford Wakeman and Howe, forgive me, sound so bad compared to their 70s work, or even their work with other groups and producers. The sound from the 80's is just absolute sh*t, unless you were a pop act. That's when prog faded into irrelevancy. And that's really the key in the question of jumping a shark. I think the Steven Wilson thing and Roine Stolte thing sort have helped prog out in the 90s, and of course the Mars Volta in the 00's, but it really is a questionable future for prog music, considering how many copies/digital downloads of Moves Like Jagger has probably sold and considering that EDM (by far my least favorite musical movement of all time) is flying off the shelves at alarming rates, I don't think we can count on the next generation to find any value whatsoever in complicated and subtle music. I think that's another reason why metal is such a big thing right now, is that no one cares about the content anymore. They use music to fill a sonic void and have no intention to actually listen to it. Metal, rap, EDM, 99% of pop, 99% of country. It's terrible, but it's what is making 99.99999% of the money at the label. It's likely a record label isn't going to sign a prog band ever, when there are plenty of these new-fangled "indie-folk" groups to squeeze money out of. It's happened before. The public says "Ok record company, we'll listen to what you say!" Then you get to hear Hanson every 3 hours for the next two years. Look at the trends though. Jet comes out with a "classic" sound , and the record companies try to push Wolfmother and the Darkness on us. Limp Bizkit is selling records (for some god awful reason) and the record companies say, "Hey! We can do that. Hand me that tape, because we're signing... Linkin Park." this copy and force-feed process is prevalent in all forms of popular media.

Finally: I have rambled on for several hundred words that everyone will get bored reading.
I would ask why are you dragging UK into this? Their two albums are nearly perfect to my ears in every respect.

IQ's 'The Wake' (1985) is one of the most 'edgy' prog albums out there. It was only when they got to Nomzamo that I agree with you about 80's production. Also no mention of Eloy who were peaking early eighties.

I suspect though you are only focusing on symphonic prog which could be argued jumped the shark with the overblown Tales From Topographic Oceans. Never been keen on doubles. Too few good ideas stretched over to vast a canvas.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2013 at 02:07
I also reject including UK in 'the decline of Prog', sure they sounded nothing like CTTE, Foxtrot or Tarkus but they made outstanding music, they found the way to inject a more modern sound while retaining the spirit of the best Prog.

Regarding Tales From Topographic Oceans, I personally do not consider it as 'jumping the shark' but rather the opposite, the culmination of a quest towards the ultimate Prog trip, although I know that some people (especially the music critics) received it as jumping the shark.

The 80's sound had indeed a major influence in the transformation of Prog and I also find it often too thin and plastic, but it's easy to criticise in retrospect. It was the emerging technology of the times, not the musicians fault, after years of messing with patch cables and knobs in the analog monster synths and tape recorders, here were the Fairlight, the Yamaha DX-7, buttons, sliders and LCD displays in the control panels, MIDI, drum machines and digital recording. The digital sounds themselves were in their infancy and consequently they were of limited quality and depth, but I guess that for musicians at the time there was little else to go.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aussie-Byrd-Brother Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2013 at 02:17
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Look at the trends though. Jet comes out with a "classic" sound , and the record companies try to push Wolfmother and the Darkness on us

Seeing as how two of those are Australian, sorry about that! Not my idea though!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tamijo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2013 at 02:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TODDLER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2013 at 07:12
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Well at least the thread taught me a new expression, I had never heard about jumping sharks except in National Geographic documentaries.

The genre in general was forced to jump the shark by its musical, cultural and economical environment in the late 70's, but those musicians who had the talent or courage kept making interesting music all along, and when the environment became more hospitable many of them have come back strong.

But some of them did indeed, Genesis jumped the shark clearly in Abacab but with Invisible Touch it was more like an aquarium show dolphin jump Tongue 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2013 at 07:14
Jump the shark.... Gotta love that expressionLOL
So it basically has nothing whatever to do with this?:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ProgressiveMike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2013 at 10:52
Gerinski: you have a very good point. I do often fail to acknowledge the fact that the groups were using brand new technology, and what they were doing could be considered experimental. I suppose since the sounds they were using were commonplace in many pop acts I always feel like the technique is lacking, even though that may not be the case. Rush's 80's output for instance, not the worst thing in the world, definitely an acquired taste, but they seem to improve in the 90's when popular producers kind of aim away from the over blown over-processed music production of the 80's and seek a more minimalistic approach in the 90's.

Concerning UK: I would like to state for the record that I love the group UK. Bill Brifford is my favorite drummer and the fact that he is working with John Wetton again can only produce amazing results. The reason I bring UK up is that, as far as I know, they were the first prog group to embrace the new technology that would ruin prog in the 80's. I can't say for sure how much it was the band experimenting and how much it was the production. Once again, amazing album. It's like the last gasp before death. Of course, Brufford came back with Discipline and there is no way I can suggest that the 80's style pioneering was more his fault that it was, say, Wetton's (who of course went on to play in Asia, whom which I have very mixed feelings about. I once put them on par with Mike + the Mechanics, but have since reconsidered.).

Concerning Eloy and IQ: You're right, and I have forgotten that good prog existed in the dead-zone. Exceptions to everything is the first law of the universe. The second law being No Spill Blood, of course.

Finally, concerning Tales From A Topographic Ocean: !!!!!!!! I love Tales!
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