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Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: May 06 2013 at 10:04
rushfan4 wrote:
For those that don't know, the term "Jump the Shark" was actually derived from a "dramatic" 2-part episode of Happy Days which featured Fonzie "jumping a shark" on his motorcycle.
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
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Points: 65934
Posted: May 06 2013 at 10:07
Dean wrote:
rushfan4 wrote:
For those that don't know, the term "Jump the Shark" was actually derived from a "dramatic" 2-part episode of Happy Days which featured Fonzie "jumping a shark" on his motorcycle.
Joined: May 16 2009
Location: Blighty
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Points: 6797
Posted: May 06 2013 at 10:26
rushfan4 wrote:
Dean wrote:
rushfan4 wrote:
For those that don't know, the term "Jump the Shark" was actually derived from a "dramatic" 2-part episode of Happy Days which featured Fonzie "jumping a shark" on his motorcycle.
On waterskis...
That's right, it was waterskis.
On his motorcycle on waterskis! Wow! impressive Heeey!
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
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Points: 8543
Posted: May 06 2013 at 10:31
Hey, that's Laurette Spang next to Ralph. I had a torrid love affair with her when I was 9 years old. Of course, she knew nothing about said love affair.
Edited by The Doctor - May 06 2013 at 10:38
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
Joined: January 06 2008
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Points: 617
Posted: May 06 2013 at 11:44
I agree that prog never "jumped the shark" when it came to the quality of work produced at least on the basis that there was always someone producing good material.
On the other hand, this is true of any musical genre which has any appreciable amount of activity whatsoever.
Perhaps a more interesting question is when mainstream commercial prog jumped the shark - by which I mean that part of the genre which enjoyed mainstream commercial success. I 100% agree that Locanda delle Fate's debut album was an amazing release and really kept the prog flame burning, but I think we also have to consider that it just didn't impact the mainstream consciousness to the extent that the likes of Yes did.
Personally, I'd go with the conventional wisdom and say that 1975-1976 would be the time when prog lost its grip on being a mainstream commercial force. Some individual bands were able to stay strong after that, but many of them sooner or later shifted to a deliberately less proggy sound in order to do so, and the market became decidedly more difficult for new bands from that point onwards.
Part of this comes down to the simple fact that fashions change, but I also think it comes down to many of the "big six" prog bands - the ones with the greatest commercial visibility who were essentially the "ambassadors" of prog to the mainstream during the era - dropping the ball to a greater or lesser extent during that time period. Let's consider:
- ELP went on hiatus in 1974. This made it all too easy for the public's attention to drift, and Works, love it or hate it, wasn't exactly the album to win back the general public.
- Yes likewise were on hiatus, and whilst their comeback album (Going For the One) was somewhat more widely embraced than Works the hiatus itself still left a gap in which people's attentions could wander.
- King Crimson were gone, Fripp declaring the era of the dinosaur bands over and specifically urging people to small, independent units for the future of music.
- Jethro Tull were going through an awkward phase which would eventually come to an end with Songs From the Wood but for the time being was a bit hit-or-miss.
Now, Pink Floyd brought out one of their best albums at this time and Genesis were able to keep going without Peter Gabriel's departure really slowing them down very much at all, so there was still interesting stuff going on in the prog field which would have been on the mainstream commercial radar. However, the fact was that half of the big six were on hiatus at the time (and one of those hiatuses looked for all the world like actual death) and another one was going through a rough patch. Now, as prog fans we know full well that this wasn't the whole story of what was going on at the time, but it's easy for us to forget that those bands had far more commercial and mainstream visibility than just about any other prog group you could name in the era - even Caravan, Camel, VdGG or Gentle Giant weren't on the same level. (The Moody Blues were close, but they were on hiatus too.)
The fact is that if you were a music fan who wasn't very well connected to the prog scene and didn't know about all of the more esoteric releases coming out of the time, 1975-1976 would have looked like a period of sudden collapse for the genre, with major bands breaking up or going on hiatus at an alarming pace. You'd have probably been keeping up with Floyd or Genesis, but those two bands on their own couldn't keep up the momentum the Big Six had enjoyed when all six of them were firing on all cylinders. When you factor in the consideration that the internet didn't exist yet - so it was that much harder for, say, a prog fan in the UK to find out about Locanda delle Fate in the first place - and it becomes easy to see why many listeners would have started looking elsewhere at that point.
So, I'd say prog "jumped the shark" - in the sense of "lost its grip on mainstream, commercial success" - when a high proportion of its main ambassadors to the mainstream left their posts. Prog wasn't pushed, it jumped.
Joined: October 12 2007
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Posted: May 06 2013 at 14:43
I just don't think people need concern themselves so much with the sales aspect. That will become less and less important, I guarantee you. The rock star thing is dead. This is a good thing.
Joined: January 06 2008
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Posted: May 06 2013 at 19:57
Oh, absolutely, and if the same thing happened today (half the front-rank prog bands split or go on hiatus) it wouldn't have nearly the same effect - new and up-and-coming bands would just slot right into the vacuum the old bands left behind. Thanks to the Internet era it's harder to make a fat stack of money out of progressive music but the actual prog scene is far more resilient.
Well speaking of hiatus. Scottish Neo Prog band PALLAS went on a 12 year hiatus and came back in 1999 with album BEAT THE DRUM, which I think it was well worth the wait and arguably their best work to date. :) Yeah....now that's jumping shark!! Lol
Prog "jumped the shark" by 1980, if not a bit sooner than that. It cracks me up when someone says that prog is going strong or is alive and kicking. No it's not! These folks are delusional.
Sure, some bands are still flogging the proverbial dead horse, but it's not a popular style of music with the masses and never will be again. Yet, the old prog bands, as well as the newer ones, have a devout following. I won't debate that. But, you don't hear new prog on the radio now like you did in the 1970's.
And, they don't play huge venues either. The exception to this would be Yes as in last summer's tour of open amphitheaters. Procol Harum opened for them. What a joke! Everyone said they were so much better than Yes, but even my faves, Procol Harum, have dropped to being an opening act. Many years ago, King Crimson and Yes opened for Procol on the same bill! It's sad.
So, let's just be thankful that we'll always have the recorded material to enjoy. That's enough for me.
Prog "jumped the shark" by 1980, if not a bit sooner than that. It cracks me up when someone says that prog is going strong or is alive and kicking. No it's not! These folks are delusional.
Sure, some bands are still flogging the proverbial dead horse, but it's not a popular style of music with the masses and never will be again. Yet, the old prog bands, as well as the newer ones, have a devout following. I won't debate that. But, you don't hear new prog on the radio now like you did in the 1970's.
And, they don't play huge venues either. The exception to this would be Yes as in last summer's tour of open amphitheaters. Procol Harum opened for them. What a joke! Everyone said they were so much better than Yes, but even my faves, Procol Harum, have dropped to being an opening act. Many years ago, King Crimson and Yes opened for Procol on the same bill! It's sad.
So, let's just be thankful that we'll always have the recorded material to enjoy. That's enough for me.
I asked elsewhere about million sellers, and was informed that Dream Theater have sold twelve million albums. Is that not good enough? I don't have figures for anyone else, but prog bands like Muse & Radiohead are mainstream bands (or did you not see Muse at The Olympics?)
Joined: January 04 2007
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Posted: May 07 2013 at 08:28
JD wrote:
...
So what do you think. What's your choice for Prog's Jumping the Shark moment?
A few bands out there ... let's see ...
ELP ...
Amon Duul 2
Can
Focus
Black Sabbath
Rolling Stones
Michael Jackson
King Crimson
...
Just about all the bands really ... some folks might even say Pink Floyd, after Roger, though I disagree. The ones that sold a million, and then only 100k on their next album, were the first that not only junped the shark, they got eaten by that shark ... since the shark was the music company, or record company!
The problem is that some of these bands were still selling, and the ability to close down shop is harder when you have a larger payroll of folks to handle ...
Edited by moshkito - May 07 2013 at 08:36
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Joined: June 23 2005
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Posted: May 07 2013 at 08:38
humor4u1959 wrote:
Prog "jumped the shark" by 1980, if not a bit sooner than that. It cracks me up when someone says that prog is going strong or is alive and kicking. No it's not! These folks are delusional.
Sure, some bands are still flogging the proverbial dead horse, but it's not a popular style of music with the masses and never will be again. Yet, the old prog bands, as well as the newer ones, have a devout following. I won't debate that. But, you don't hear new prog on the radio now like you did in the 1970's.
And, they don't play huge venues either. The exception to this would be Yes as in last summer's tour of open amphitheaters. Procol Harum opened for them. What a joke! Everyone said they were so much better than Yes, but even my faves, Procol Harum, have dropped to being an opening act. Many years ago, King Crimson and Yes opened for Procol on the same bill! It's sad.
So, let's just be thankful that we'll always have the recorded material to enjoy. That's enough for me.
I'm not sure why you're equating "jumping the shark" with record sales and the size of venues played. That term has nothing to do with popularity and has to do with the quality of the work produced. Something "jumps the shark" when it begins to decline in quality, not in quantity sold.
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: May 07 2013 at 10:40
Stool Man wrote:
humor4u1959 wrote:
Prog "jumped the shark" by 1980, if not a bit sooner than that. It cracks me up when someone says that prog is going strong or is alive and kicking. No it's not! These folks are delusional.
Sure, some bands are still flogging the proverbial dead horse, but it's not a popular style of music with the masses and never will be again. Yet, the old prog bands, as well as the newer ones, have a devout following. I won't debate that. But, you don't hear new prog on the radio now like you did in the 1970's.
And, they don't play huge venues either. The exception to this would be Yes as in last summer's tour of open amphitheaters. Procol Harum opened for them. What a joke! Everyone said they were so much better than Yes, but even my faves, Procol Harum, have dropped to being an opening act. Many years ago, King Crimson and Yes opened for Procol on the same bill! It's sad.
So, let's just be thankful that we'll always have the recorded material to enjoy. That's enough for me.
I asked elsewhere about million sellers, and was informed that Dream Theater have sold twelve million albums. Is that not good enough? I don't have figures for anyone else, but prog bands like Muse & Radiohead are mainstream bands (or did you not see Muse at The Olympics?)
But they are not prog . Haven't you heard, 'real' prog died in the 70s, Fripp killed it after Red album.
Joined: February 02 2004
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Posted: May 07 2013 at 11:00
rogerthat wrote:
Haven't you heard, 'real' prog died in the 70s, Fripp killed it after Red album.
The corpse was then fed to a shark, which Arthur Fonzarelli subsequently jumped on waterskis whilst riding a motorcycle, hence the OP's original question is answered...
Huzzah - a PA thread about prog going downhill answered to an ample sufficiency within 2 pages; this is a record!
Incidentally, it is a little known fact that the cover photo of ELP's Love Beach was taken as they were waiting for said shark (see above) to be BBQ'd, having died of boredom listening to an early Pallas demo
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: May 07 2013 at 12:04
Jim Garten wrote:
Huzzah - a PA thread about prog going downhill answered to an ample sufficiency within 2 pages; this is a record!
No. Unless this is pressed into three 12" platters of 130gm black polyvinyl chloride and housed in a die-cut tripple-gatefold sleeve whose Patrick Woodroffe designed artwork bears absolutely no relationship to the contents, complete with a fully-illustrated 32 page story-book/lyric-sheet and a fold-out poster and several assorted stickers and iron-on tattoos shrink wrapped in hallucinogenic-inducing mylar foil designed by Bridget Riley then I refuse to call this "a record".
Anyway, we've another twelvty pages of post answer discussion and analysis to go yet.
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When did Prog first "Jump the Shark"?
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rushfan4 wrote:
. Haven't you heard, 'real' prog died in the 70s, Fripp killed it after Red album. 
