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Prog-Does The Recording Year Matter?

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TODDLER View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote TODDLER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Prog-Does The Recording Year Matter?
    Posted: July 04 2013 at 20:34
With me...it's the basics. I never gave any thought to the fact that "Music In A Doll's House" by Family was released in 1968. When listening to this recording...I thought it was reminiscent of Genesis' Trespass, Nursery Crime but, in fact that is not the case and it's quite the opposite. Family must have influenced Genesis. Genesis were not writing that particular style ....not even in 69' because they sounded more like a Bee Gee's clone..and in reality Genesis did not contain that sound and approach to writing until 1970 when they released Trespass. Family were also a huge influence on Jethro Tull. I always had Family albums,but never cared to notice the dates of releases. This was quite interesting to discover and thanks to Dean for waking me up to that small portion of Prog history. Now ..when I sometimes listen to Doll's House ..I have the strangest impression of how certain Prog ideas may have been developed in the 60's.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote stonebeard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2013 at 21:52
Knowing the year and technology involved in the recording of any music deepens the appreciation of it. Most people can hear chord changes in music, and that's enough for them, yet still others can identify individual instruments and even work out the actual chords and melodies. This deepens appreciation. One level that people don't often get to is the technological side. The pitch of the drums. The frequencies present in a mix. The space of the instruments in the sound field. Obscure effects and how they're made. Why recordings from the 70s sound different than those from the 80s, 90s, and 00s. When a punch was made on a track. The limits of 8- and 16-track recording and how it influenced actual compositions until the 70s. And one of my favorites - recognizing edits based on hearing the ambient noise of a microphone kick in and out, which I recall on Porcupine Tree's Stupid Dream in particular.

It's not about prog, it's about all music. The more you know, the less somethings impress you and the more other things do.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote presdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2013 at 08:36
^^^^^^^Thanks, everybody, for your interesting comments.
Something that i don't think has been mentioned yet, that i find fascinating to decipher in music, prog or otherwise, is what i like to call "atmosphere"-the sort of overall feel of a piece of music that relates your mind to something of the time it was recorded. I have got to the point where i can tell the decade a prog album or classical romantic symphonic work was made in simply by the atmosphere it creates. It took me decades of intense listening to be able to do this. Not that "atmosphere" is the most important thing in the music, but it is kind of fun to make a guess and then link it up to the recording date. Just a funny quirk of mine,i guess.
"and what music unites, man should not take apart"--Helmut Koellen                               
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Post Options Post Options   Quote TODDLER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2013 at 23:20
Originally posted by presdoug

^^^^^^^Thanks, everybody, for your interesting comments.
Something that i don't think has been mentioned yet, that i find fascinating to decipher in music, prog or otherwise, is what i like to call "atmosphere"-the sort of overall feel of a piece of music that relates your mind to something of the time it was recorded. I have got to the point where i can tell the decade a prog album or classical romantic symphonic work was made in simply by the atmosphere it creates. It took me decades of intense listening to be able to do this. Not that "atmosphere" is the most important thing in the music, but it is kind of fun to make a guess and then link it up to the recording date. Just a funny quirk of mine,i guess.
I believe I do the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bozit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2013 at 09:20
It does matter because:
The music reflects its times colors,feelings and social feelings.
For example as said in prog rock britannia the 70`s were time that the future seemed to give us flying cars and robot maids because of the amount of technological advances in the the 60`s like the landing on the moon everything seemed possible so the lyrics of the musicians reflected those feelings.
And thats just one example
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2013 at 19:07
Originally posted by TODDLER

Originally posted by presdoug

^^^^^^^Thanks, everybody, for your interesting comments. Something that i don't think has been mentioned yet, that i find fascinating to decipher in music, prog or otherwise, is what i like to call "atmosphere"-the sort of overall feel of a piece of music that relates your mind to something of the time it was recorded. I have got to the point where i can tell the decade a prog album or classical romantic symphonic work was made in simply by the atmosphere it creates. It took me decades of intense listening to be able to do this. Not that "atmosphere" is the most important thing in the music, but it is kind of fun to make a guess and then link it up to the recording date. Just a funny quirk of mine,i guess.


I believe I do the same.


You can count me in.   
Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2013 at 19:43
Actually, from a historical point of view, I'm more interested in when a composition/album was WRITTEN, NOT so much when it was recorded. After all, even the "average" album was almost certainly written at least a year prior to its recording date (which may, by the way, be somewhat earlier than its RELEASE date...). But some compositions/albums may have been written even earlier than the recording and/or release date.

Again, strictly from a historian's point of view, the writing date is the most important.

Peace.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2013 at 11:21
Originally posted by TODDLER

With me...it's the basics. I never gave any thought to the fact that "Music In A Doll's House" by Family was released in 1968. When listening to this recording...I thought it was reminiscent of Genesis' Trespass, Nursery Crime but, in fact that is not the case and it's quite the opposite. Family must have influenced Genesis. Genesis were not writing that particular style ....not even in 69' because they sounded more like a Bee Gee's clone..and in reality Genesis did not contain that sound and approach to writing until 1970 when they released Trespass. Family were also a huge influence on Jethro Tull. I always had Family albums,but never cared to notice the dates of releases. This was quite interesting to discover and thanks to Dean for waking me up to that small portion of Prog history. Now ..when I sometimes listen to Doll's House ..I have the strangest impression of how certain Prog ideas may have been developed in the 60's.
 
Honestly, I prefer to not give a darn about the date.
 
We don't sit here and listen to Beethoven because it was 1821, or Ravel, because it was 1921, or whatever. There might be a connection as to why the music is the way it is, but that is not as important as the music itself ... otherwise we would not be listening ... which is the most important part of it!
 
Again, I consider all of this stuff a natural extension of the growth of music history in the 20th century ... and to me there are no basics ... the only thing there is, is ... music ... that someone created a special moment in time that you and I listen to and love doing so. The only "basic" that was not there 100 years ago, was electricity, which has gone on to change music in ways that no one could ever had conceived of!
 
It would seem trivial, but not to sadistics (per Guy this is statistics and statesmen! hehehe!) who are not really listening to the music at all ... just to one piece they like that happened in 1972! And they compare the world to it. Look, that girl was nice on the cover, but there was more music, not to mention girls! Like saying the ones in that day were different than the ones a couple of years later ... maybe the t-shirt and hairdo ... but the rest?
 
We need to do better on our critical discussions!


Edited by moshkito - July 13 2013 at 11:32
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2013 at 12:31
The recording/composition year is important if only to place it in context and in the right chronology. It is important to know that Beethoven wrote the 3rd Symphony after he'd written the 1st and 2nd not just for purposes of being accurate but to understand the development (go on, say it, say 'progression' Wink) in his music. Similarity it helps to know that Tchaikovsky wrote the 1812 some 60 years after the event it commemorates and that it was intended to be a more general purpose celebration piece than the name implies. (Curiously the first performance relied on 'electricity' to time the church bells and canon fire into the orchestral performance.) Context and Chronology. Knowing the context of both pieces (Beethoven wrote the 3rd, the [h]Eroica, in honour of Bonaparte before the events of 1812) helps us appreciate them, and their composers, a little better.


Specific dates only become important when the context needs the precise chronology to define it, 1971 is only of interest when talking about Stairway to Heaven if someone claims that Rolf Harris's 1993 version was the first, or when someone (someone else hopefully) makes the claim that Uriah Heep's 'Come Away Melinda' was an original Heep song. Knowing the date fits the tune into a chronology and that puts it into context.

Recording date also becomes important when the artist decides to re-record the piece (Tangerine Dream, Eloy, Banco del Mutuo Soccorso (Darwin!), Mike Oldfield, The Enid, Rick Wakeman, etc), giving us two different views of the same work and a big stick to thump them with no doubt when the later version is far from being the definitive version.


Edited by Dean - July 13 2013 at 19:59


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Post Options Post Options   Quote maani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2013 at 19:03
"1971 is only of interest when talking about Stairway to Heaven if someone claims that Rolf Harris's 1993 version was the first, or when someone (someone else hopefully) makes the claim that Uriah Heep's 'Come Away Melinda' was an original Heep song."

You mean, like people who think Guns'n'Roses wrote Knockin' on Heaven's Door....LOL.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2013 at 19:07
^ Once, when Annie Lennox's Sweet Dreams came on a pub juke box, I did overhear the comment "That's ironic... some bird's covered Marylin Manson."


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Post Options Post Options   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2013 at 19:27
I can't say it matters  a lot to me though if some one tells me about a good prog lp that I'm not familiar with from 1974 as opposed to a good one from 2003, I tend to want to hear the older one first.
But for me I think it's due to my age more than anything else.
As an example I love the last 2 IQ cd's as much as most of my older prog.
Et In Arcadia Ego
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 16:03
Originally posted by Dean

^ Once, when Annie Lennox's Sweet Dreams came on a pub juke box, I did overhear the comment "That's ironic... some bird's covered Marylin Manson."


Uh oh.

Best you had fun correcting him.
Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 16:05
Originally posted by dr wu23

I can't say it matters  a lot to me though if some one tells me about a good prog lp that I'm not familiar with from 1974 as opposed to a good one from 2003, I tend to want to hear the older one first.
But for me I think it's due to my age more than anything else.
As an example I love the last 2 IQ cd's as much as most of my older prog.


Nice. I feel the same way about IQ. Age can be irrelevant depending on how much you love something. ;)
Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 16:14
Well. A good example is IQ's TALES FROM THE LUSH ATTIC.
First recording in 1983 was plaqued by horrible sound mixing and production.
Now...2013 TFTLA has been reissued and re-mixed in such a way where it represents IQ's true vision for the album. Suffice to say, I really do prefer the 2013 reissue. The sound quality and production far exceeds that of the original.

This is a classic case where technology saves and restores a classic album. I am very thankful. :)
Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The.Crimson.King Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 17:35
Originally posted by dr wu23

I can't say it matters  a lot to me though if some one tells me about a good prog lp that I'm not familiar with from 1974 as opposed to a good one from 2003, I tend to want to hear the older one first.
But for me I think it's due to my age more than anything else.
As an example I love the last 2 IQ cd's as much as most of my older prog.

I feel exactly the same about the first 2 IQ albums Wink
I'm using the chicken to measure it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tamijo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2013 at 03:02
Originally posted by Dean

^ Once, when Annie Lennox's Sweet Dreams came on a pub juke box, I did overhear the comment "That's ironic... some bird's covered Marylin Manson."
 
Not to mention that i won a BOX of beer (30 x 33cl of Carlsberg)
Because someone was THAT sure, "I Shot the Sheriff"  from 461 OB, was an original Eric Clapton Sick
 
One day young people may be of the impression Reggae was invented by Clapton and The Police Tongue
Quite a few people think "Cocaine" was a Clapton too. 


Edited by tamijo - July 15 2013 at 03:15
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Post Options Post Options   Quote brainstormer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2013 at 09:11
Most proggers give absolutely no thought to the two Electric Prunes albums in 1968, the ones
that they did in collaboration with David Axelrod.  If prog is also about sound experimentation,
the Prunes were probably one of the top 3 bands that advanced the sonic spectrum in rock music.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2013 at 09:58
Originally posted by brainstormer

Most proggers give absolutely no thought to the two Electric Prunes albums in 1968, the ones
that they did in collaboration with David Axelrod.  If prog is also about sound experimentation,
the Prunes were probably one of the top 3 bands that advanced the sonic spectrum in rock music.

I had 'Mass' ...(never bought 'Oath')...., it always sounded like psych rock to me and not 'prog'.
As Dean once said recently on the proto prog thread, 'not all psych rock qualifies as 'proto prog.'
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Post Options Post Options   Quote brainstormer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2013 at 11:17
Originally posted by dr wu23

Originally posted by brainstormer

Most proggers give absolutely no thought to the two Electric Prunes albums in 1968, the ones
that they did in collaboration with David Axelrod.  If prog is also about sound experimentation,
the Prunes were probably one of the top 3 bands that advanced the sonic spectrum in rock music.

I had 'Mass' ...(never bought 'Oath')...., it always sounded like psych rock to me and not 'prog'.
As Dean once said recently on the proto prog thread, 'not all psych rock qualifies as 'proto prog.'

I don't see how you can come up with that opinion but to each his own.  "Oath" is just as progressive.

Another note from James Lowe this morning, telling him of more the BS surrounding this album
that I found on Wikipedia:

Robert Pearson:   I just wanted to touch base as
this morning I was alerted the the wikipedia note about your
recent liner notes saying the band didn't record on Mass in F Minor
at all:

Both Mass in F Minor and Release of an Oath were released under the band's name, but because of their complexity were recorded by other musicians and not the band.[3]

The 3 footnote is:

  1. ^ Unterberger, Richie. "Liner notes for the Electric Prunes' Mass in F Minor". Retrieved March 7, 2013.

I can respect it though if you say you don't care any more about
setting it straight as you already did that quite a bit in your
interview with me. 

I'm just curious about these liner notes.  It's funny, it seems like there is a faction
of people out there that really want to discredit the Prunes completely as having
anything to do with being able to play their instruments. 
 
James Lowe: I have always felt the Axelrod group would like to have had the Mass and Kol Nidre to themselves without the bother of a queer named band in the way. We (the original group) recorded the Mass in F Minor ... period. The Kol Nidre album was an obvious cash-in on the band's name and since we had all quit by that time it had no original members playing on it. Period. These people seem to want to rewrite the thing to their liking. Did we support the Mass album ... not really. We didn't think it had merit because we couldn't play it on our own. We needed horns, strings and singers. Maybe this was expected fare for musicians but we were a GARAGE band, for chrissake. Pass the mustard.  (thank you for your interest) jAMES 




Edited by brainstormer - July 15 2013 at 11:19
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