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Topic ClosedSteven Wilson, Prog heritage and legacy

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Aussie-Byrd-Brother View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2013 at 08:23
If I recall, Roger, it wasn't so much that Steven said something nasty about Dream Theater, more that `I don't like their type of music, even though they're damn good at it' or something along those lines? I'm sure some rabid Dream Threater on here could clarify the exact comment?!

Edited by Aussie-Byrd-Brother - June 23 2013 at 08:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2013 at 08:28
Wilson worked with Portnoy in 2003 (OSI)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2013 at 08:35
I sure hope I'm never scrutinized as closely as Wilson and held to such a high standard of conduct.  It's kind of eerie how we expect public figures to act.  If it were the President or something, then yeah, but this is just a semi-famous cult musician.   But the public loves finding faults in its heroes, no matter how small, and so this story is perpetuated for 7+ years.  And with internet, the sheer volume of posts and blurbs about it make it exponentially more likely with each passing year that it will continue to show up on searches for "Steven Wilson", even though that hatchet was presumably buried years before.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2013 at 08:36
I like Wilson's last couple solo albums. The Raven is superb. But I am really not interested in what he has to say, nor am I inclined to listen to the opinions of any entertainer. If I may paraphrase Zappa, "Just shut-up and play your guitar".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2013 at 08:39
Originally posted by HolyMoly HolyMoly wrote:

I sure hope I'm never scrutinized as closely as Wilson and held to such a high standard of conduct.  It's kind of eerie how we expect public figures to act.  If it were the President or something, then yeah, but this is just a semi-famous cult musician.   But the public loves finding faults in its heroes, no matter how small, and so this story is perpetuated for 7+ years.  And with internet, the sheer volume of posts and blurbs about it make it exponentially more likely with each passing year that it will continue to show up on searches for "Steven Wilson", even though that hatchet was presumably buried years before.

I am sorry but I really don't think showing a bit of respect for a colleague in the same field as yours - unless you have good reason to believe he is doing something illegal/unethical etc - is such a big deal.  If Wilson does want to still go ahead and publicly pull down another musician, sure, but the public is going to talk about whatever becomes, well, public.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2013 at 08:48
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I    I believe he also said something nasty about Dream Theater 
Knobs dont know nuffink about this new Wilson apparent marvel, but on the strength of the above, Knobs will look into his music.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2013 at 08:51
Mutual respect between musicians is not the same as commenting on the work they produce and how they produce it. Wilson has remastered two ELP albums but has said he won't do any more because "I can’t honestly say I love them"... which many interpreted as Wilson saying that he hates ELP. If musicians are not permitted to comment on the work of other musicians we are reducing the world to a population of sycophants.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2013 at 08:54
Be this the Wilson youse all going on about?:
 
"Oh out in Stonehenge, I lived alone/ Arrived in Gamehendge, I chafed a bone."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2013 at 08:55
Ah, but he went well beyond that w.r.t TFK.  He basically blamed them for "reinforcing every prejudice people have about prog".   There is an element of personal spite in that comment which Stolt didn't take very well at all.  Wilson wants people to think of prog as a specific set of bands including PT (and by implication not TFK).   That's way out of line.   It is perfectly ok to say he doesn't like TFK or even to use less charitable words like "boring".   But he has not restricted himself to that brief at all; the comments read like he has some personal agenda against TFK.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2013 at 08:59
Originally posted by Knobby Knobby wrote:

Be this the Wilson youse all going on about?:
 
"Oh out in Stonehenge, I lived alone/ Arrived in Gamehendge, I chafed a bone."
Nope. That song pre-dates SWilson's rise to prominence by several years so it is unlikely to even be a glancing reference.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2013 at 09:25
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Ah, but he went well beyond that w.r.t TFK.  He basically blamed them for "reinforcing every prejudice people have about prog".   There is an element of personal spite in that comment which Stolt didn't take very well at all.  Wilson wants people to think of prog as a specific set of bands including PT (and by implication not TFK).   That's way out of line.   It is perfectly ok to say he doesn't like TFK or even to use less charitable words like "boring".   But he has not restricted himself to that brief at all; the comments read like he has some personal agenda against TFK.
Not really, but if you want to propagate that idea then that's what the internet is good at. Wilson was asked to comment on what bands like Radiohead, TMV, TFK and Transatlantic need to do for Progressive music to survive and he gave an answer from his perspective, (which included the direction PT were moving into at the time with previous Absentia and the soon to be released Deadwing, both of which marked change in direction from their earlier albums), about the longevity and continuing survival (future or death) of a genre of music that that has two very distinct and (until now perhaps) incompatible sides (innovation and nostalgia).
 
There was some disengenuous things in Stolts response too, (not withstanding his assertion that 'neither Flowerkings or Transatlantic have ever been dealing with "sci-fi lyrics"' ... which leaves me wondering what the hell Back In The World of Adventures, Retropolis, Stardust We Are and Unfold The Future were all about and why TFK amd SMPTe have sci-fi album cover art work), that it was a contrived publicity move to furher Wilson's career.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2013 at 09:32
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Ah, but he went well beyond that w.r.t TFK.  He basically blamed them for "reinforcing every prejudice people have about prog".   There is an element of personal spite in that comment which Stolt didn't take very well at all.  Wilson wants people to think of prog as a specific set of bands including PT (and by implication not TFK).   That's way out of line.   It is perfectly ok to say he doesn't like TFK or even to use less charitable words like "boring".   But he has not restricted himself to that brief at all; the comments read like he has some personal agenda against TFK.
Not really, but if you want to propagate that idea then that's what the internet is good at. Wilson was asked to comment on what bands like Radiohead, TMV, TFK and Transatlantic need to do for Progressive music to survive and he gave an answer from his perspective, (which included the direction PT were moving into at the time with previous Absentia and the soon to be released Deadwing, both of which marked change in direction from their earlier albums), about the longevity and continuing survival (future or death) of a genre of music that that has two very distinct and (until now perhaps) incompatible sides (innovation and nostalgia).
 
There was some disengenuous things in Stolts response too, (not withstanding his assertion that 'neither Flowerkings or Transatlantic have ever been dealing with "sci-fi lyrics"' ... which leaves me wondering what the hell Back In The World of Adventures, Retropolis, Stardust We Are and Unfold The Future were all about and why TFK amd SMPTe have sci-fi album cover art work), that it was a contrived publicity move to furher Wilson's career.

I am sure it is possible to pontificate on those things with more sophistication.  The kind that Wilson desires from his supposedly attention deficit Ipod junkie listeners but which is rather missing in his comment.  He did not stop at deciding whether TFK falls on the nostalgia side of the balance (and PT on the innovation side)...he basically said bands like TFK hurt the business for others (like PT).  You don't have to read too much into his words to infer that because short of using those exact words, it's what he said.  It's pretty silly to complain that some other bands give the label that your music is slotted under a bad name and (which seems to be SW's favourite theme) things could have been so much better if only there were no TFK.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2013 at 10:46
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Wilson worked with Portnoy in 2003 (OSI)

Moreover, he participated on 'Systematic Chaos'. And Jordan Rudess played keyboards on his solo albums.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2013 at 10:54
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Mutual respect between musicians is not the same as commenting on the work they produce and how they produce it. Wilson has remastered two ELP albums but has said he won't do any more because "I can’t honestly say I love them"... which many interpreted as Wilson saying that he hates ELP. If musicians are not permitted to comment on the work of other musicians we are reducing the world to a population of sycophants.

Actually Wilson's ELP remasters were a part of Universal's deluxe reissues series. Many of ELP albums were re-released before Wilson came to remaster them, so what's left to reissue in future is mostly poor late stuff like 'Love Beach', so there is no wonder why Wilson dislikes it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2013 at 10:57
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

...
I am sure it is possible to pontificate on those things with more sophistication.  ...
...
 
But we have to get past the idea of likes and dislikes and write a good paper for PA, the new professor!  The problem is, that only a handful of posts in this thread, for example, would make the grade and be useful in a paper to get you a good grade ... everything is opinion and comment, and none of it is centered on the strength of the quotes and ideas presented by Steven himself.
 
We are all a bunch of frustrated nerds and idiots. We want HEROES, and then we decide that we don't like them, because they do not have the proper ending for their 39th song on the 17th album! And then we set about playing judge and jury to kill them, and let people know that we don't like them ... anymore!
 
Something is wrong with this process ... times change ... and people's opinions change ... but we took away Steven's change during that time, too!
 
I do not think that Steven is any bigger a hippocrite than ALL OF US HERE, that have no idea, no guts, and ability to create music ... but we do stand up to define it and tell him that he is wrong, just like that turkey did to Gary Green, explainging to him about progressive music ... and Gary says ... we just played. Nothing was written ...
 
We don't get it, do we?
 
So why, are we holding Steven up to ... some ideal standard, that even he does not believe in?
 
BTW, the thing with ELP, I think ran into issues between Keith and Greg I'm willing to bet ... that simply were not worth the hassle! There is a lot of music out there that could use Steven's touch ... but his ears are too limited and his opinion on things too strong, for him to just do something different. And something that is worth while!


Edited by moshkito - June 23 2013 at 10:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2013 at 11:00
Just a small advice for those who will remember 7 years old Wilson/Stolt incident again: you guys just behave like 13 years-old HIM haters. And, honestly, have the same brain.


Edited by ole-the-first - July 27 2013 at 18:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2013 at 11:09
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


I do not think that Steven is any bigger a hippocrite than ALL OF US HERE, that have no idea, no guts, and ability to create music ... but we do stand up to define it and tell him that he is wrong, just like that turkey did to Gary Green, explainging to him about progressive music ... and Gary says ... we just played. Nothing was written ...
 
Actually, by that count alone, he would be wrong...wrong in trying to artificially characterise one set of bands as the death of progressive music, the ones that give it a bad name.    You constantly remind everyone in any thread (irrespective of whether it bears relation to that topic) that people should not have strong opinions on what is and what is not progressive so why do you feel compelled to defend Wilson here.  Let me state it pretty bluntly here:  any member of this forum making a statement with such sweeping generalizations as Wilson in that interview would have been immediately confronted with several people jumping in to correct him and teach him how to write English on the internet.  So why should we be reluctant to apply those same standards to Wilson's opinions?  Are we not guilty somewhere of feeling the need to place him on a pedestal, as if he is somehow above the normal rules that apply to people because he is a renowned musician.  We have to accept that all of Wilson's talents as a musician may not necessarily make all of his opinions entirely positive or respectful.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2013 at 11:53
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

...  We have to accept that all of Wilson's talents as a musician may not necessarily make all of his opinions entirely positive or respectful.
 
And that was pretty much what I said ... you just said it in different set of letters and words!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2013 at 16:55
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I do not think that Steven is any bigger a hippocrite than ALL OF US HERE, that have no idea, no guts, and ability to create music ... but we do stand up to define it and tell him that he is wrong, just like that turkey did to Gary Green, explainging to him about progressive music ... and Gary says ... we just played. Nothing was written ...
 
You assume that none of us are musicians. Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2013 at 22:25
Originally posted by Knobby Knobby wrote:

Be this the Wilson youse all going on about?:
 

"Oh out in Stonehenge, I lived alone/ Arrived in Gamehendge, I chafed a bone."



http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=290
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4135

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